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May 04, 2013, 07:01:22 AM
Ah bummer that, I hope you get your family issues sorted soon. But yeah such things are delicate in my experience. Many personal feelings involved, much more difficult than with someone you know less off.

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Author Topic: The Fox and the Jewel  (Read 6386 times)

Offline Feathertail

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The Fox and the Jewel
« on: January 22, 2011, 11:55:11 PM »
Okay ... I already kinda described my "conversion story," of how I came to know Inari and allow myself to believe in her, here. But before and after that happened, I've been finding out whatever I can about her, including reading the threads on this forum.

One of the biggest helps that I've found was The Fox and the Jewel, by Karen Smyers. You can check out a sample on Google Books here. It's not a book about folklore; it's an anthropological treatise, by an American researcher who went to Japan to learn about Inari worship (and Inari worshipers). It's a little dry sometimes, but very thought-provoking.

I'm going to outline what I've learned from it here, and if any of you would like to add to this or correct me on any of it, please do. :) Again, this is not about stories or legends or how you personally see Inari; it also assumes that you know the basics about her already. This is more about how people, including me, perceive her and worship her today. Or perhaps, what sets Inari worship apart from the worship of other deities.



Individualization

... one of the most important features of Inari worship is its high degree of diversification and even individualization of the deity. Devotees do not simply worship "Inari," but a separate form of Inari with its own name. Inari shrines worship entirely different kami as Inari; traditions and symbols have a multiplicity of meanings.

-- The Fox and the Jewel, p. 151

Inari may have her priests and shrines, but her faith isn't the kind of rigid, top-down structure we're used to here in the west. Indeed, one website about the book compares her priests to " ... traffic police caught in a supernatural rush-hour, watching weird driver after weird driver roaring off in their different directions." As just one example, her priests try to discourage people from seeing her as a fox, as opposed to seeing foxes as Inari's messengers. Naturally, they haven't succeeded at that. ;)

Mostly, though, even they seem very accomodating. The book talks about one who "explained to a group of American university students who came to learn about Inari that 'for followers of Inari, forms of faith and worship take very different, very personal, forms.'" (p. 171) At another Inari temple, one of the priests was asked if Inari should be enshrined in a Shinto kamidana or a Buddhist butsudan, and the priest replied "You should use whichever style fits in better with your family's religious situation. If you have one kind of altar but not the other, it is fine ... Whichever is more comfortable for you."

When I converted to Inari worship, I didn't suddenly adopt new religious habits so much as I started directing my prayers to her. As I wrote out my wishlist of what I wanted "my Inari" to be like, though, I started to wonder: What's the point of worshiping Inari, if she's whatever you want her to be? As it turns out, there are a number of reasons why people turn to her in particular, the foremost being ...



Intimacy

A woman who fervently worships at Toyokawa Inari Temple in Tokyo says: "I have worshiped Dakiniten [Inari] for ten years. When I pray to my ancestors, I feel that I must not ask for anything, but only give thanks to them. But in front of Inari, I feel I can speak frankly. I feel very close and can discuss anything."

-- The Fox and the Jewel, p. 165

"Even people who seem very fortunate," Karen writes, "have certain problems and needs they can tell to no one, but they can always turn to Inari ... no matter how big a request one makes of the deity there is no worry that one will later have to repay someone in kind". The Fox and the Jewel does retell some accounts of Bad Stuff that happened to people who dismantled Inari shrines, but on the whole, Inari seems very hard to upset. Tsukos wrote that you have to try to upset her to make her mad, which makes sense to me.

Personally, I've always prayed desperately whenever I was distressed about anything. I now believe that Inari has been receiving those prayers for awhile, so if she can put up with my pleadings she's probably okay with being bothered about whatever. And no, it's not because I'm kitsune. :P The impression I get from the book is that that's how the Japanese, as in Japanese humans, see her too.

When I decided to accept that she does exist, and directed my first real prayer at her, she actually replied and started questioning my motivations. Why did I believe in her now? Why did I want to worship her? She wasn't mean about it, but I share this to show that the intimacy can go both ways; another kitsune I spoke with told me of a similar experience, and they're both best described as "intense." Perhaps when I decided to let Inari be herself, she wanted to make sure that the fox who was praying to her was the "real me" as well.

But what is Inari like?



What Inari stands for

It is my contention here that the fox symbol is the key to Inari's long and continued popularity. Like the elusive, shape-shifting fox that refuses domestication, the symbol remains open and adapts to new situations. ... Priestly disapproval of the fox symbol is, in my reading, not because the fox is unimportant in Inari worship but precisely because it is so important.

-- The Fox and the Jewel, p. 13

A neopagan site devoted to Inari says that "While best known for her dominion over foxes and rice, Inari isn't only a fox-kami. She is also a fertility goddess (of all types: agricultural, animal, reproductive, sexual, human, financial, etc.); She is the protector of commerce, trade and rice; She is known for granting wishes and desires; She is a goddess of healing; She is patron to warriors, blacksmiths, actors, theaters, prostitutes, firemen; and on the shore She is a fishing patron. She is also a kami of luck, change, transformation, and of boundaries and crossing them."

That's a lot of stuff for Inari to be a goddess of! And a lot of different people who've worshiped her. Even today, Wikipedia explains, "Modern corporations ... continue to revere Inari as a patron kami, with shrines atop their corporate headquarters." Besides foxes, though, what is Inari most concerned with? Maybe that's where the "Jewel" part of The Fox and the Jewel comes into play. "The other symbol of Inari is the wish-fulfilling jewel, red or gold, which grants not generic wishes but a person's specific desire." (p. 178) And interestingly enough, "the other meaning of tama besides 'jewel' is 'soul'".

Looking at it historically, rice started out as the basic food staple but soon became a measure of wealth. So the goddess of rice became a goddess of fertility and prosperity, and part of the reason she's so versatile -- and continues to be worshiped by millions today in the modern world -- is because of her foxy nature. She changes and adapts, and she helps others change and adapt as well. Who better to help a fox otherkin come to terms with his or her real self?



What Inari means to me

Behavior that was traditionally diagnosed as "fox possession" included unusual eating habits, inappropriate use of language, inability to follow social norms, and, most interesting, newfound abilities in literacy ...

-- The Fox and the Jewel, p. 178

Perhaps the best way to show what Inari means to me is to contrast her with what I was raised to believe. I grew up in an ultraconservative church, which put a lot of emphasis on ritual "worthiness." It caused me a lot of stress, and made me constantly doubt myself. Then I found a kitsune website, and I started researching them and imagining a kitsune RPG character ... and a fox-woman goddess of change, who bore an uncanny resemblance to Inari (as I would later discover). Pretty soon my "worthiness" slipped, and I was heartbroken. But nowadays I look back on it, and I'm so glad that Inari spared me from that religion's temple rituals, and the things they wanted me to do.

After that I spent years humiliated and in spiritual limbo, convinced that I had offended God with my dirty thoughts and unable to make myself clean again. But fantasy stories and art kept my spirits up, and gave me a reason to live. Then just a few years ago, I started questioning everything all of a sudden, from what I should eat and what OS I should use on my PC to, eventually, what religion I should be a part of. I had an insatiable need to find out everything, and I felt like I couldn't stop reading ... I was being transformed, whether I liked it or not.

When I had my first talk with Inari, after she'd finished asking me questions she took responsibility for what had happened. There was this flood of feelings and images, as she reminded me of these past years and showed me how she'd had her paw in them ... how everything tied to her areas of concern, and how she had wanted me to be myself. I think I cried, I was so grateful. Because as traumatic as the change was, I'm much happier now than before. And I feel that I'm working for a better cause.



Serving Inari as a kitsune

Inari is a kind Mother, but many demand much from Her. We're there to help Her answer the most important calls.

-- Okori Tenko, Eyes Wide Open

This part will be very speculative, so please don't take it as preaching. :fox_thoughtful: I personally like the idea of being Inari's servant and messenger; it's a part of the legend that stood out to me. So I'm going to try to explain what my thoughts are about this, and what my thought process was when thinking about how I could serve her. If any of you want to share your own stories, I'd love to hear them!

Anyway, I'm a progressive, so I sorta see Inari's concerns from a "social justice" angle. She's a goddess of wealth and prosperity, so if there are poor people in the world then that's a bug that needs to be fixed, right? I make buying decisions carefully, and look for Fair Trade-certified products, and toys and things that were made and sold ethically by independents. At the same time, I try to appreciate the nice things that I have, and find new homes for stuff I don't use anymore.

I also share Inari's obsession with food. I'm an organic vegan, and I encourage everyone to think about what they eat and where it came from. I say a prayer of gratitude to Inari for everything that I eat, and I like to make my own food and share it with others. Perhaps helping to feed others, like by volunteering or playing the rice game, could be considered an act of devotion to her!

Finally, after my repressed upbringing Inari's role as a goddess of sexuality is also important to me. I've tried to learn responsible ways of approaching it, and to be considerate of my partner and overcome my own shame. I've also written some stories that portray what it's like to be GLBT, to increase people's awareness and tolerance of others, plus an essay on Dreamwidth's "It Gets Better" community. And since my girlfriend's an asexual, I try to make people aware of them in particular, and educate others about her orientation.



How about you?

In general, people worship in ways they were taught by their parents or grandparents, and eclectic forms abound.

-- The Fox and the Jewel, p. 171

I really hope I didn't step on anyone's tails with this. Like I said, this is about how others worship Inari. The reason I wrote it was partly to work out my own thoughts, and partly to help others -- foxes and humans and others -- do the same for themselves. So, thanks for reading all the way through, and if there's anything you'd like to add, go ahead! And/or you can correct me on stuff I got wrong. ;)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 12:37:05 AM by Feathertail »

Offline tsukos

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Re: The Fox and the Jewel
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2011, 10:33:14 AM »
I have to say first that I'm an incredibly ignorant SOB when it comes to actually knowing much about Inari.

I have said elsewhere that I believe in Inari, but don't follow her.

There are several reasons for this; I have spoken with her, after a fashion, and come to several conclusions about myself that mean that I could not be at ease with serving Her.

First, I am exceedingly ignorant, but I've already said that.

Second, beyond my ignorance, my past and my experiences have taught me consistently that any sort of dominion over others is bad; to me relationships should be conducted on as equal a footing as possible, and the imbalance is simply too great for servitude in my eyes, but not for mutual respect.

Third... what would I want to do as Inari's messenger and servant? explore! that may be exactly the job offer I'm getting, but it doesn't feel like it. It feels like I'd end up as a missionary-esque position, or shuttling between other deities. It may be that there's simply nothing left to explore, in which case I would rather stay here and become an astronaut or some such.

This may all change with the passage of time; my opinions may soften, things may be revealed, or I might simply learn more... but for now, my relationship with Inari is one of 'respectful disagreement'.
I am the fool. I am without knowledge, and seek to understand in my own way.

My pursuit is rude and crude, the questions blunt, the finesse insulting, but it is the only way I know.


To those who know more than I, I hope you excuse my boldness, and to those who know less, I hope you follow in my example.

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Offline Feathertail

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Re: The Fox and the Jewel
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2011, 02:07:33 PM »
This may all change with the passage of time; my opinions may soften, things may be revealed, or I might simply learn more... but for now, my relationship with Inari is one of 'respectful disagreement'.

I'm sure she's okay with that. ;) Srsly, I didn't write this to persuade anyone of anything. Mostly I wrote it because writing stuff down helps me organize my thoughts, and because I thought the foxes here might find it interesting. I don't claim that my personal experiences are applicable to anyone else; I'm just sharing them as an example of one way to approach Inari.

I will note that I agree with you about the dominion thing, and I don't consider myself her servant in the sense that she "owns" me per se. It's more like, I saw she was working on a cool project and I begged her to let me help. I don't feel like I have any special status or authority from her, either. I'm just looking for ways that my actions can advance what I see as her causes, because my projects feel more meaningful when they're done as an act of devotion. It also helps me feel more confident when I pray to ask for her help with them.

As a point of comparison, the church I belonged to has a strong top-down hierarchy, made up almost entirely of "volunteers" who were guilted into accepting "callings" given by their superiors. They believe that their god inspires such callings, and that the people who hold leadership positions are worthy of respect no matter what; they also believe that their "priesthood" holders have the literal power of god, to command healings and miracles. I consider that an unhealthy attitude, and I feel that it leads to abuse and disillusionment.

Offline tsukos

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Re: The Fox and the Jewel
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2011, 02:53:33 PM »
I know she's okay with it :)

That's an interesting point of view.

servitude has some very negative connotations, but service encompasses a wide variety of things; most of them benign and voluntary.

Still... from that point of view there's simply not much to say. It's been made clear to me that Inari doesn't consider our conversation worth being paid back for; and I agree.

There's a whole bit about love, and I believe it, but I can't experience it as it's meant to be experienced. But perhaps that doesn't matter, seeing as each person, according to your sources, sees Inari differently.

She helps me work out my problems and asks nothing in return. I don't need her to love me, not yet, because frankly I'm not certain what love is.

Though I'm certain she wants me to be myself.

On the note of the church... that's worse than a lot of churches, sheesh. That sounds like a one-way trip to dysfunction junction.

You did more or less ask about us at the end there though...
I am the fool. I am without knowledge, and seek to understand in my own way.

My pursuit is rude and crude, the questions blunt, the finesse insulting, but it is the only way I know.


To those who know more than I, I hope you excuse my boldness, and to those who know less, I hope you follow in my example.

Avatar picture by Ty Rufus: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/ty-rufus/

Offline Feathertail

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Re: The Fox and the Jewel
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2011, 05:21:46 PM »
On the note of the church... that's worse than a lot of churches, sheesh. That sounds like a one-way trip to dysfunction junction.

You said it!

You did more or less ask about us at the end there though...

Yep. It just seemed like you thought I was trying to convert you or something, and I wanted to make sure you knew that wasn't the case. :fox_okay:

Offline tsukos

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Re: The Fox and the Jewel
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2011, 07:18:19 PM »
I just wanted to share ^^;
I am the fool. I am without knowledge, and seek to understand in my own way.

My pursuit is rude and crude, the questions blunt, the finesse insulting, but it is the only way I know.


To those who know more than I, I hope you excuse my boldness, and to those who know less, I hope you follow in my example.

Avatar picture by Ty Rufus: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/ty-rufus/

Offline Feathertail

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Re: The Fox and the Jewel
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2011, 07:47:00 PM »
I just wanted to share ^^;

Okies! I didn't respond as much since we'd already talked about some of this earlier.

What sort of love do you mean that you can't understand, though? Because the English language uses the word "love" to mean multiple different kinds of affection.

Offline tsukos

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Re: The Fox and the Jewel
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2011, 07:57:36 PM »
Oh boy...

The simplest would be unconditional love.

My parents 'give' it to me all the time, supposedly. Inari offers it, supposedly. Even the christan God offers it, supposedly.

But, if it's unconditional... then why has it never felt that way? Is it simply because I've never had an experience that would demonstrate what 'unconditional' means?

I simply don't understand that.

I don't understand other relationships either. Sex isn't relationship, and I know that, but romance isn't relationship either. Friendship is a relationship, but the only one I sort of understand.

And yes, I probably do need to get laid at some point.

Love of children, an innocent affection? I think kids are cute... but I also think they're annoying and loud for the most part. Maybe that'll change if I ever have some of my own.

Love of my fellow man? I suppose that means not constantly wanting to annihilate everyone on the planet and furthermore not liking human suffering, but there's not much further I can go with that.

is there anything else that 'love' covers? ^^;
I am the fool. I am without knowledge, and seek to understand in my own way.

My pursuit is rude and crude, the questions blunt, the finesse insulting, but it is the only way I know.


To those who know more than I, I hope you excuse my boldness, and to those who know less, I hope you follow in my example.

Avatar picture by Ty Rufus: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/ty-rufus/

Offline Feathertail

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Re: The Fox and the Jewel
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2011, 09:31:53 PM »
And yes, I probably do need to get laid at some point.

That's a cultural expectation, which leaves asexuals feeling left out. Intimacy doesn't have to involve a particular kind of sexuality to be satisfying.

I've only felt "unconditional love" a few times, and they were all extremely rewarding. I hope you find it someday (if you want).

Offline tsukos

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Re: The Fox and the Jewel
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2011, 09:49:46 PM »
I was partly joking there.

I don't even know what my sexual orientation is.

I do know that I want to know someone who realizes that intimacy and sex are not the same thing, and furthermore that one is not inherently related to the other.

It also doesn't help that I have three RL friends, all straight males. I've simply not found people around here to be terribly interesting, and more often than not I've found them intolerant of ideas that they disagree with or worse, blind and deaf to what I say in favor of their own fantastic fantasies of me and them (Clingy jealous girls= do not want!)

So, alright, I didn't have the Church woes and the self-loathing. But instead I simply had a black hole of not-knowing for an identity, and to an extent I'm still trying to find parts of it. And sexuality, what I want from relationships, love... they may not be the most important things, but I feel they are important.

I'm rambling with no clue what I'm saying. I do that a lot.
I am the fool. I am without knowledge, and seek to understand in my own way.

My pursuit is rude and crude, the questions blunt, the finesse insulting, but it is the only way I know.


To those who know more than I, I hope you excuse my boldness, and to those who know less, I hope you follow in my example.

Avatar picture by Ty Rufus: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/ty-rufus/

Offline matoa

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Re: The Fox and the Jewel
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2011, 06:02:33 AM »
In my mind I don't feel or see "love". I see family members and friends that "care" (As in their feelings are affected by yours, and by your situation).

But what is love? In my opinion, the basic definition of love, is that whatever you "love" has a higher value to you than yourself, your soul, and whatever you are. It sounds extreme to me, and that is why I don't expect to "love" anyone or anything, and I would not expect anything to "love" me.

I care about a great many people and things, but I do not value them above myself, or above my soul. Your parents may throw themselves in front of a truck to save you, and that is the unconditional love that you spoke of, but do they really "love" you? Or is it simply some chemical genetic programming to protect their offspring?

That leaves two possibilities for love:
1. You willingly and with great thought care more about something else then yourself, thus you "love" it or them, and giving up your life for the object or person would be assumed with my definition of love.
2. You are programmed genetically to protect other people at the cost of yourself, this is called "love", but it is not a thinking love, it is merely instinctual. (The parental kind of love)

I was trying to think of why I "love" and if I "love", and those were the answers that came to me, it is just my opinion, and I would like to hear another definition of love if you have any ideas.

 :hyper:

Good write up, by the way. You pulled in many things to make a basic Inari FAQ.

 :D
Nothing but heaven itself is better than a friend who is really a friend. - Plautus

Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend. - Albert Camus

People spend a lifetime searching for happiness; looking for peace. They chase idle dreams, addictions, religions, even other people, hoping to fill the emptiness that plagues them. The irony is the only place they ever needed to search was within. - Ramona L. Anderson

Offline Feathertail

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Re: The Fox and the Jewel
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2011, 01:28:34 AM »
I care about a great many people and things, but I do not value them above myself, or above my soul. Your parents may throw themselves in front of a truck to save you, and that is the unconditional love that you spoke of, but do they really "love" you? Or is it simply some chemical genetic programming to protect their offspring?

Now now, just because you can say which neurons or chemicals are involved doesn't mean you can dismiss the feelings caused by them. Although I would agree that someone who has those bonding instincts might not necessarily love their object, or even see him or her as a real, separate person.

I'm not sure what else to say though, since this is really abstract and the notions being communicated are unfamiliar to me.

Good write up, by the way. You pulled in many things to make a basic Inari FAQ.

Thank you. :)

Offline matoa

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Re: The Fox and the Jewel
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2011, 11:28:21 AM »
Now now, just because you can say which neurons or chemicals are involved doesn't mean you can dismiss the feelings caused by them. Although I would agree that someone who has those bonding instincts might not necessarily love their object, or even see him or her as a real, separate person.

I'm not sure what else to say though, since this is really abstract and the notions being communicated are unfamiliar to me.

Does your feeling of love come from the body, like how you feel hunger, or pain? Does it come from the soul, like your emotions? Or is it a "thinking" love, where you would not naturally feel that way, but your mind and intent override your basic survival instinct to protect something that is not normally considered important?

You may feel an emotion such as love, or anger, but where is the source of that emotion? If you are simply following your "programming" and responding the way anyone would, then in my opinion you are a robot. The feelings may seem as real and as powerful as those "thinking" emotions, but they were formed without your intent.

There are some people who will give their lives for a stranger on the street, now is that because they "love" them, or because they value their lives less then the other persons? (Self esteem issues) Both answers are accurate, and in my mind synonymous. In my opinion my life is just as valuable as the other persons, and while I may risk my life to save many people, I would probably not risk my life to save just one, even if they were "family". Again I choose to override my genetic programming, and choose a course of action that would be "unnatural".

There are also those who protect things that should not be protected, such as cars, phones and material possessions. They risk their lives to prevent damage to those things that they find valuable, and sometimes die for them. Think of those extreme sports such as motorcycle jumping, the people who do it "love" to do it, and technically they are right! They are willing to risk their lives for the "love" they feel after a jump, and either their natural "love" circuit is damaged (thus attaching to things that would be "unnatural" to love) or that they have used their "thinking" to override their natural state, and apply "love" to the object or sport in question.

That is probably why people fall in love, their genetic programming tells them "IT IS TIME TO MATE, AND PROCREATE" and they start dating, and eventually get married and have kids. It may not seem glamorous to think that most folks are simply animals operating on a OS that is millions of years old, but unless you find out what your programming is, how can you expect to do anything else?

Next time you "feel" something, consider if someone else were in your same situation, would they feel the exact same thing? If so then it is probably your programming, and not your "thinking".

 :D
Nothing but heaven itself is better than a friend who is really a friend. - Plautus

Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend. - Albert Camus

People spend a lifetime searching for happiness; looking for peace. They chase idle dreams, addictions, religions, even other people, hoping to fill the emptiness that plagues them. The irony is the only place they ever needed to search was within. - Ramona L. Anderson

Offline Feathertail

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Re: The Fox and the Jewel
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2011, 11:41:34 PM »
Matoa, you're drawing an unnecessary (and arguably nonexistent) distinction between people's natures and conscious plans, and you're doing yourself a disservice by calling the former "programming." And because people's natures are different, it's not hard to imagine that someone else might feel differently in a given situation. For example: Asexuals have no drive to "mate and procreate."

The point of having a conscious mind is to decide whether or not it'd be a good idea to act on the impulses of one's nature, not to decide that they're all ridiculous just because you didn't "choose" them. :PYour deep-seated feelings and preferences give you the basis from which to decide what's better than something else. Just because you didn't choose your feelings doesn't make them unimportant, and just because some come from your neurology and others (which?) come from your soul, that doesn't make one kind "less than" the other.

When I had self-esteem issues I would've been less likely to risk my life for someone else, because it takes a lot of confidence to do something dangerous. Finally, you're using the word "love" to mean a lot of different things, and I think it's a really bad idea to say that someone's messed up in the head just because he or she has an affinity for something you don't like. Especially when you're using the word "love" to describe his or her feelings for it. There's a big struggle going on about people's right to love who they want to, in my country at least.

Offline matoa

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Re: The Fox and the Jewel
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2011, 12:36:43 AM »
And because people's natures are different, it's not hard to imagine that someone else might feel differently in a given situation. For example: Asexuals have no drive to "mate and procreate."

Yes people do have different natures, and I recognize that. If 1 out of 100 people is "different" in any way then the 99 would be considered "normal" and the 1 would be considered "abnormal", I am not saying that anyone is "broken" or "wrong", in their feelings, but statistically they are still abnormal in that aspect.

Asexuals are statistically considered abnormal, the cause may be up for debate, but the facts are still the facts. The world has been on a run to prove that everyone is equal and the same, but we are NOT equal, we are all different and unique. So you could say that "everyone is normal" or that "everyone is abnormal" and you would be correct because we are all abnormal in some ways and normal in others.

You also need to define what Asexual is, is it the lack of desire to "mate and procreate" as you said, or is it a conscious decision that "I will not make and procreate", or something else that causes those particular feelings or lack thereof? There could be many sources to any abnormality, so again it is very subjective to the individual.

You can also define abnormal in this way, think about if every member of a species had this same trait, say asexuality, would the species be able to survive? If every human were asexual, then no, it is likely that our species would die out in a matter of a generation or two (except for the abnormal ones that were not asexual). Again I am not saying that asexual people are wrong, or "evil" they are simply abnormal. If the source of the abnormality is genetic, then the problem solves itself simply due to those affected with asexuality are not likely to have children.

Matoa, you're drawing an unnecessary (and arguably nonexistent) distinction between people's natures and conscious plans, and you're doing yourself a disservice by calling the former "programming."
The point of having a conscious mind is to decide whether or not it'd be a good idea to act on the impulses of one's nature, not to decide that they're all ridiculous just because you didn't "choose" them. Your deep-seated feelings and preferences give you the basis from which to decide what's better than something else. Just because you didn't choose your feelings doesn't make them unimportant, and just because some come from your neurology and others (which?) come from your soul, that doesn't make one kind "less than" the other.

Yes while instinct is important to maintain the species as a whole, I believe a conscious will should control your actions, and you should control when you let you instinct take over. The goal of instinct is to maintain and multiply your species, every animal "normally" feels this same "eat, mate, protect" response, simply because if we did not have it, we would not exist as a species, and most other life would not exist without it either.

And that is why I think programming is the correct term for non-thinking behavior and reactions. Your programming (instinct if you prefer) defines what you will do in any given situation in the absence of conscious thought. Part of my programming (and most normal living things) is a fear of heights. I can try to override that and step closer to a cliff, but if my fear is stronger than my conscious will to override it, then my "programming" defeats my intellect and I am simply following my programming. Most people are programmed to "love" their family, and to "mate and procreate". From your point of view the intent does not matter so long as they preform the action, but I think that their intent and purpose for their actions defines whether they are "sentient" self aware thinking people or merely acting like dumb animals going wherever their bellies lead them. What good is being self aware if you don't control your own destiny?

You do raise an interesting point though, are all couple relationships simply chemically based neurological instinct? Can you think of a scenario where a conscious thinking person would choose to marry? I am interested, simply because I don't have any desire to date, marry, or ever become physically intimate with any human, and since I am broken in such a way I can't think of any reason why I would want to. Maybe if there was a good reason, I would decide to pursue it as a goal.

Finally, you're using the word "love" to mean a lot of different things, and I think it's a really bad idea to say that someone's messed up in the head just because he or she has an affinity for something you don't like. Especially when you're using the word "love" to describe his or her feelings for it. There's a big struggle going on about people's right to love who they want to, in my country at least.

I define love as only one thing, the willingness to risk your life for whatever you "love", anything you value less than your life you would only "care" about.

It is not just an affinity for something "I don't like", but what is defined as normal. Just because someone is abnormal, I don't know from what source abnormality comes from, and most likely you don't either. It could be that they really are "messed up in the head", we don't have any proof that neurology does or does not play a part in specific abnormal thoughts, feelings, and ideas, so I would not discount it as a possibility.

When they can say that you feel X because of Y, then we will know why. Until then we will hopefully learn to accept that we are all different.

 :D

I realize that this and some of the other posts in this thread are probably off topic, so if an admin happens to see this, hopefully they can move it to more appropriate location.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 01:09:02 AM by matoa »
Nothing but heaven itself is better than a friend who is really a friend. - Plautus

Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend. - Albert Camus

People spend a lifetime searching for happiness; looking for peace. They chase idle dreams, addictions, religions, even other people, hoping to fill the emptiness that plagues them. The irony is the only place they ever needed to search was within. - Ramona L. Anderson

 

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