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[Kira]

I've just realized that I've never encountered a piece of Japanese lore yet that introduces Myobu and Nogitsune.
 
Does anyone know when and where they came into play?
Is there even any mention of them in lore, or was it all just made up?

[Kirara Munashi'i]

You started a great thread that got me thinking. You're right. I've never encountered (that I can recall) a single piece of folklore that actually uses both terms. All I could find is an occasional mention of it in some of the research books out there, but they are only mentioned in the introductory passages of the book and not in the actual folklore.

I started looking through all the books I own on the subject and even some sites on-line and could not find a single instance where it was mentioned. I wonder why? Maybe it was because the stories are so old and the terms "myobu" and "nogitsune" may have been just modern terms (much like even the term "kitsune" [I think]), itself. It is the only explanation that makes sense, but would be interesting, if this is wrong.

[Ghost Rider]

!!!!



Wow.  From all of the actual stories that I know of, I can think of foxes that suit those terms - but no mention of the terms themselves.  Kira, you are one amazing rapscallion.  I gave a quick flip-through of some books of Japanese folklore that I have, and there was no mention of "Nogitsune", but plenty of mentions of 'vengeful spirits'.  I do not have any books of my own that reference Inari, so I cannot speak for that one - but come to think of it, in original sources that I have read, there are foxes who are described as 'messengers of Inari' - but no Myobu.  And in the books I have, there are celestial foxes who bring messages from Buddha - but they are usually just described as 'White Foxes' and 'Celestial Messengers' - but not Myobu.

I will have to do some digging here, which is refreshing!  It is rare that I am punched in the face with something so obvious.  I will be doing some digging on those words, and I feel more certain on one than the other at this point, but from what I can now see... way to go, Kira.  I am lost for words except... *slaps forehead*!  I do believe those terms are modern inventions.


- Big C. in the Sky

[Seeker]

Haha oh wow.

[Kira]

 
Destroyer of wor(l)ds, huh?
That's what Evans called me when I was writing that post. Strike at the weak point and an entire world may collapse.
 
I've been thinking about this as a result of the discussion about the word for fox, and I realized that the only place I actually read about Myobu and Nogitsune was in Foxtrot's and similar places. So I got the nagging feeling that... something was not right there. What if those terms were just pure RP? What would that mean as consequences?
 
That's why I took so long to actually post it.

[Kirara Munashi'i]

If it was coined purely for use in RP, why would other research books (and the book by Kiyoshi Nozaki) mention it? (Especially when that book is actually a lot older than Foxtrot's research [Kiyoshi's I mean, and in the 60's if I recall correctly].)

[Kira]

 
Good point.
Still, that doesn't solve the mytery of their origin...

[Ghost Rider]

Destroyer of wor(l)ds, huh?
That's what Evans called me when I was writing that post. Strike at the weak point and an entire world may collapse.

Thought came to my mind as well...

Still, that doesn't solve the mytery of their origin...

I haven't checked out any new books on the subject yet, but if the book Kirara mentions does use that terminology (Kioshi Nozaki's book) in the early sixties, my guess is that those two terms were invented in the early second half of the twentieth century by Japanese Folklorists to help organize and distinguish different types of Kitsune found in the Established collection of folklore.  Is there a possibility that  they were an invention of Nozaki himself?

As I said in my first post in this thread, I can find foxes that suit the terms, but no mention of the terms themselves, in the original stories - and I could easily see a folklorist making such distinctions clear with the invention of new terms for categories that were taken for granted in the stories.

As for the "legitimacy" of the terms, I suppose that is up to the reader to decide.  But they seem to be 20th century inventions made to divide a wide spectrum of different fox behavior in Japanese folklore into two categories, to account for especially the Troublemakers and the Heavenly Messengers, without much thought given to those in between.

Very interesting.

~Over and FAR Out~
-Big C. in the Sky

[Shiori]

I am not sure if the terms were invented or not. I only first heard of Nogitsune and Myobu from Japans fox mistery and humor. (not sure if thats right).

[Okori Tenko]

I'd take great offense were you to dismiss the title of 'Myobu'. You can't look in the old stories, because the name is not there. You can't look in the old temples, because those names are not there.

 Where else is there then to look?

 How about checking the old court records?

 Myobu is the fifth and highest rank that any Kitsune could obtain in the human courts. Even Tamamo no Mae is STILL a Myobu, no matter how much of a Nogitsune she became after-wards. Being granted the title of Myobu makes one a Noble. Such a title, for a ktisune, is NOT easy to earn. It's never just handed to anyone.

 At the same time, you'll only find the other name at the other end of the old Courts. Specifically something more like old police records. Nogitsune means 'criminal', or 'against law' or 'his own way'. Depends on how you break it up, much like the old name of kitsune. Read three times over, it's a 'Criminal against the law going his own way'. Interesting how that works out, isn't it?

[Kira]

 
Old court records?
I have no data on that.
 
Could you explain?
=^,^=

[Okori Tenko]

 Many of the old Court Records from the 800's to the early 1750's did contain 'Official Religious Documents', connotating that a Noble has given the status of 'a local shrine guardian, believed to have aided in this matter secretly' the status of 'Myobu', which is the fifth highest rank in the old Empirical Courts, so that the now presumed 'Otsukai', or 'National Guardian' could come and speak with the 'Divine Emperor' directly, with all of the duties and privileges henceforth active upon such date and forever henceforth, to be carried with Makoto,  filial piety, and honor.

 At least, that's what should be understood from that time period. Even today, the 'Myobu' are heavily respected. Those who have earned it, truly earned it.

[Seeker]

So even as the peasants worshipped the Kami, local governments showed their respect by basically making them them honorary ambassadors. Or their disdain by issuing warrants for their arrest. Interesting.
I'm amused at the moment by the mental image of a policeman in feudal japan attempting to apprehend such a suspect, and hollering "You can't do that! It's against the rules!" When the kami in question pulls some vexing stunt to get away.

But then one thing is still undone; the general consensus seemed to be that Myobu were given that status by Inari, and Nogitsune were those who did not follow Her. But if these titles were doled out by Man, what meaning should they really have to us?

[tsukos]

I would say, that it seems more likely that Inari originally 'coined the term' as it were, and man adopted it into the court as a noble title.

But then, I'm an ignorant hick who has no clue what he's talking about ^^;

[Okori Tenko]

Posted by Seeker:
 
 "So even as the peasants worshiped the Kami, local governments showed their respect by basically making them them honorary ambassadors. Or their disdain by issuing warrants for their arrest. Interesting."

 Exactly. And this is also why our own kind have a sort of police force, known as the Nomaki. They are pretty much the police. Yet, even the Nomaki can't take care of all matters. This is why there are kitsune hunters, known for taking out the worst of the worst, more or less, assassins. I don't know their actual names, but I -have- resorted to calling them 'Wakizashi'. More or less, they were used as the 'back-up plan' when the Nomaki failed, which was semi-rare. These hunters... don't fail often.

 Of the unique situation that one of the 'Wakisashi' fail, the Court of the Jde Empress was consulted. Few ever got to see the true Jade Empress. Normally, they would speak to one of the Curtail, her Ambassadors, whom usually speak in leiu of the Lady Herself.

 Though there hasn't been many of her presumable 'Paladins' left in a long time, those that are still around are worth 20 of the Nomaki and easily 10 of the 'Wakizashi' assassins. This is because of their unique abilities. Although these estranged 'Paladins' are more directly under the 'god's' guidance, the Jade Empress lets her Emerald Tower serve as their place of refuge.

 To the point, only the Jade Empress herself knows exactly who and what they are. To the point, I believe they are all Otsukai, national protectors, who are further trained by the Jade Empress directly. Of them, they have a specialized technique, which has been slaughtered through every RPG known to man, but this is where it actually extends from.

 Their technique is extremely unique, and virtually unstoppable. The technique I have resorted to calling 'Ken Odori'. The technique implements the use of illusions, elemental casting in a unique way that indirectly lets one of these warriors use all of the elements they choose to use and in a more powerful way than can be thought, and martial arts, all hidden with in a preset, self-stylized set of performing motions.

 The name Ken Odori is literally translated as: Blade Dance.

 The 'Blade Dancers' were the strongest of all the Kemono Youkai warriors and protectors, thought to be Otsukai, Paladin equivalents chosen by the gods to protect mankind form the ravages of the Oni kind. They wore painted masks and wore flowery-scented silks and satins to hide their identities from their brethren. no one, not even the very courts knew who each one was.

 THEY... do -NOT- fail.

 I would pity anyone whom the 'gods' see fit to be set upon by their 'Ken Odoriko', the 'Blade Dancers'.

 Perhaps now, you'll take a second look at the pictures denoting "kitsune protectors, sitting near a shrine, wearing light silks and surrounded by 'flowers', brandishing a weapon, and holding a beautifully painted 'fox mask'." Perhaps such a depiction holds more hidden insight to what is actually being seen?...

 -I- think so.

 If that sounds like role play?... Maybe you should check where the creators of the games got their information, once again.

Posted by Tsukos:

 "I would say, that it seems more likely that Inari originally 'coined the term' as it were, and man adopted it into the court as a noble title."

 Posted by Seeker:

 "But then one thing is still undone; the general consensus seemed to be that Myobu were given that status by Inari, and Nogitsune were those who did not follow Her."

 Actually, you're exactly right. Many of the old court titles were taken from the sacred texts and used in human courts. Originally, only another Myobu could grant another such title, like peer vote. Such a title could come from a Shinto Priest, the Emperor himself directly, or a chosen official who had a rank above that to other humans. humans grant this entitlement to Kami as a way to honor the chosen guardian.

 Kudos to you both. Don't feel as if you aren't as smart as you really are. These were accurate assumptions. >^.^<

 Posted by Seeker:

 "But if these titles were doled out by Man, what meaning should they really have to us?"

 In a sense, much of what was sacred was adopted by man to make sense of his and her world. Even Inari (before she was considered a Greater Kami) was once a Myobu in Amaterasu's Court, and still holds the respect of that title today. Or so it was once written. The same applies to us. Not all things that 'mankind' can adopt from 'the gods' can be so easily corrupted. Tarnished. Perhaps. Corrupted? No. In the end, we can choose to uphold the original values set by those entitlements... or we can chose to let them slip away from our grasp, as humanity does to the concepts of the sacred. Yet, if we did, would that make us any better than humanity?


 Posted by Seeker:

 "I'm amused at the moment by the mental image of a policeman in feudal japan attempting to apprehend such a suspect, and hollering "You can't do that! It's against the rules!" When the kami in question pulls some vexing stunt to get away."

 Heh. Someone stop that fox! XD

 I feel a Kawaii moment coming on. XP

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