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[KaiOT]

Sounds like a new age commune, but a little less "cultish" than your standard commune.

I might like to visit one of their centers if I get the chance, and get a feel for their true intentions.

Even if it is a perfect society (Which is is not) then by allowing humans in, they have already failed. The only perfect society is one where there is no free will.

It will probably start and end like Orwell's Animal farm, everyone is equal except the administrators who are more equal.

 

Ah misanthropy... such a fun word...

Ah... Animal Farm... who doesn't love communism? -It's like a synonym for sharing 

 
If that by letting humans in they would fail at making a utopia do you then think that it is impossible to create one? After all even if you disassociate yourself from humanity everyone here is at least in some part human.

[matoa]

If that by letting humans in they would fail at making a utopia do you then think that it is impossible to create one? After all even if you disassociate yourself from humanity everyone here is at least in some part human.

My first guess is that it would be impossible to create a utopia, and even if were to be perfect, it would only stay that way if they did not allow any unclean outsiders to join. You need to remove any random elements to maintain stability.

In most cults you are programmed to obey the "leader", and as long as everyone behaves it appears to be paradise. But once you start letting in people who question authority, or refuse to do the hard labor, then your organization is on the path to destruction.

A true "Everyone is equal" communism or "One vote per person" (See * below) is worthless for groups larger than about 150 people, you need a focused leader to guide the average person, something akin to a benevolent monarchy. And so long as the original founder holds power, you would probably maintain a relatively stable society.
^{* Democracy is just closet communism, think of the expected result of three lions and two zebras voting on the dinner menu.}

I could make a perfect community of one person (me), but then I would need to kick myself out due to my flaws. So perfect? No. But you could probably make a stable society, and with an iron fist make it paradise in your image.

 

[Kira]

 
Maybe people should simply not try to make it perfect, but rather to make it better?

[matoa]

Maybe people should simply not try to make it perfect, but rather to make it better?

Indeed.

 

[KaiOT]

If that by letting humans in they would fail at making a utopia do you then think that it is impossible to create one? After all even if you disassociate yourself from humanity everyone here is at least in some part human.

^{* Democracy is just closet communism, think of the expected result of three lions and two zebras voting on the dinner menu.}

Surely that’s the opposite... closer to fascism? In communism each lion and zebra would get the same... but what would probably happen is the lions would eat the zebras... where the lower members of society are taken advantage of by the aristocrats and such...

But hey, it was a nice analogy.

Here's another on the topic of perfection:

Nobody is perfect.
I am nobody.
Ergo: I am perfect.

_{Simples *squeek*} 

[StormFox]

lol.

Another one:
Everybody is equal,
but I am more equal.

[Seeker]

Democracy isn't a magic answer to anything anymore than communism. Groups with the same belief aren't "more right" they're just louder. And when a country is, like the US, run on deceit and misinformation, democracy becomes next to worthless.

The problem with the social structures people keep trying is that they all use the same distribution of power- a pyramid. The people on the bottom really have no power even though there's loads of them- and they're too busy bearing the burden placed on them by the upper levels to do much of anything about it. What's needed is a 5-dimensional distribution- a vertical pyramid resting on its own head, so that technically each level is above each of the others. And somehow I think the physical existence of such an object is far more likely than the creation of a social structure by that principle.

[Zalim]

You can't say the ONLY social structure that's been tried is the pyramid. It's just been the most stable, lasted the longest, and therefore the most prominent. But there were short lived attempts at other ways of governing - such as the open democracy of Athens.

Honestly, I think where we really get into trouble is the idea that one group of people should have power over another group of people. While equality will never be achieved, we should at least strive towards it. And so, ideas like representatives should be re-evaluated. Only problem is, you can't just reform a country without any losses. You have to get to a point where the bloody transition is actually worth the risk. And who decides that...

[Seeker]

Honestly, I think where we really get into trouble is the idea that one group of people should have power over another group of people. While equality will never be achieved, we should at least strive towards it. And so, ideas like representatives should be re-evaluated. Only problem is, you can't just reform a country without any losses. You have to get to a point where the bloody transition is actually worth the risk. And who decides that...

I think the problem isn't that one group has power over another, because without that no decisions can be made or enforced. I think the problem is that the 'checks and balances' don't go deep enough, that you get a few groups that don't have to answer to anyone and can do what they want, and a huge pile of people that are almost completely disenfranchised. In between you have a stable government, a well-oiled machine that can continue to function for hundreds of years- but it's only a mask. It can, in the end, only serve to keep afloat a dying society.

[Kira]

 
That's where chaos comes into play.
It's like water.
A stagnant pondd may be peaceful and quiet, but it soon begins to rot.
 
Try to upkeep order for to long, and you'll have people catch on and exploit the rules.
You can't make a perfect system.
At least not the way it's now.
 
How I see it now is, if seen as a timeline:
-The old system has crumbled, we need to make a new system
-We take care of all the weaknesses in the former system, and now make a truly perfect system
[Passage of time]
-The system is showing weaknesses, but I'm sure no one will notice
-Maybe we should re-make the system, but people have grown used to it, and the system has solidified, so there's really nothing we can do
[Passage of time]
-People are starting to notice how the system is flawed, we really should have re-made it, but now it's even stronger and more resilent than before
[Passage of time]
-The system has grown into some sort of tumor and everyone can see it now, but no one can do anything against it ever!
[Passage of time]
-A revolution took place, turned out people could do something against the system after all
-The old system has crumbled, we need to make a new system
...
And so on.
 
Maybe if people didn't cling to stuff so much and were willing to throw stuff away and re-make it better it would work. But not like this.
 
The stability of a system is actually a fault in this.
A system that gets a complete overhaul every once so often, be it by shattering and being re-bulit, or by some crafty measure in its own would be much better.
 
Heh, imagine it like that.
Whenever there are elections, not only do new people get voted into office, but also all the parties are completely disbanded and new parties are formed.
That might be worth a shot.
 
In the end, it's just trial and error all the way.
But for that, people first have to accept the errors.

[Okori Tenko]

*strokes his muzzle once more.*

 Very interesting is the relationships that are bordered between a kitsune's values, their emotions, and others.

 Kemono Yokai can be prideful, as well as vain, at times. This... I especially have to admit to.

 As a kitsune grows, their values can become extreme in their young middle ages. This can become tempered with age, but from 300-450 or so, that age range, they can be.... extremely temperamental. Keep in mind that kitsune are often reflective of humanity. During this time, kitsune often view the world differently, as they've just watched a great many of their friends die, and even their family's and friend's children's ancestor die. Entire family lines disappear. Their 'earntly' world is gone for them. This was especially difficult during the Meiji Restoration Period (Mid to Late 1800's.)

 Still, kitsune -are ruled by their emotions, and these emotions are set with the values they learned while they were young (0-200 as young kitsune). And don't think that if they see someone doing something against what they learned that a kitsune is above 'teaching them a lesson'. This can even extend into their ancient times, but is usually tempered from age, so it would have to be something major, like the complete destruction of a temple by human hands.

 Even as such, there are things about a kitsune's emotions that can be both beneficial and detrimental. When a kitsune is happy, their positive energies can draw good things. When a kitsune is sad, it can draw close very sad things, including passive, but sad ghosts and other Youkai. When a kitsune is angry?... Well, you get the picture by then. Still, anything sad or angering can be destructive to the kitsune. This... I know first-paw fully.

 The most destructive thing can be from a dark secret. Kitsune do hoard secrets, and try to get as many as they can, but usually they are benign secrets. If a kitsune is made to hold a dark secret, it can become a self-destructive issue.

 In any event... emotions can rule a kitsune, and in a very few cases, can kill them. However, such things can be... extreme.

 The world of kitsune is indeed ruled and particularly dominated by females. To my own knowledge, our leader, considered the 'Jade Empress', still rules with a rather iron fist, traveling with the 'thousand tails', her 'Curtail' of servants, on occasion. Mainly, the females do rule, and are more common, as males tend to get themselves in situations their ''feminine natures' won't aloow them to fight back much. The females, though, -are- kmore ruthless and cunning. 'Beware the wratch of a scorning woman.'

 There are a few males that have prime roles, and there are plenty of males to go around. However, it's true that even the males are very effeminate. Often, kitsune are found to be 'angelic and beautiful' when serving good purposes, and very dark, foreboding and evil when serving a dark purpose. Still, even when evil, they are still beautiful. This mark of beauty extends down to even the most evil of kitsune. It's a mark of Inari Herself, as she favors kitsune.

 Yet, why would Inari choose to let kitsune become dark and evil? Even she knows balance must be maintained. To Her divine mind, does not the exsistance of evil kitsune serve the purpose of definition? -or what 'not- to act like? -I- may just barely be chipping the ti of the iceberg there, but it's a start for thought.

 In the end, there are indeed some truly evil kitsune out there. None so much as the line of Tamamo-no-Mae. That line extends all the way back to India, in the form of Tamamo no Mae's ancestry lines, mainly kept in records of all her mothers and daughters. From India is seen Pau Su, who subversively used her charms to corrupt a Maharajah., and not the most evil. Then to China's Mei Ling, who took down three different Dynasties. To the Huli Jing, Su Nahn (Right name? Can't remember.), who tore through Korea's countryside consuming all she could of families and friends in a nightmare frenzy of lust and hunger, and then to Tamamo no Mae, whom no resides within the 'Death Stone'... at least, her 'body' does.

 In all, the line of these 'Dark Daughters' still exists, even today. Which means, we will likely see another daughter of Tamamo no Mae, because to the Dark Daughters...

... this isn't over, yet. The REAL show is yet to begin.

[Fujo Jigen]

I was wondering, where in the lore again (since everyone around here is so up on it being gospel), it says anything about emotional 'sensitivity'?

The Lady Tamamo-No-Mae once demanded that all of the concubines of the Emperor should be forced to dance nude, in the gardens, for her amusement.  The ladies, shamed, refused.  So Lady Tamamo-No-Mae enticed the Emperor to have the ladies stripped and thrown into a pit of vipers and hornets - so they would dance for her.  Such was her thrill of death and beauty.

If you don't know the story, look it up.

This story, if only one of the most well known, does far more than merely suggest that Kitsune are "emotional"; her story is one of continual sadistic sensory delight and pain.  But was Lady Tamamo-No-Mae real?  The hear-say records from which many plays about her were written assert that these things indeed did happen.  Ancient historians point to several real Empresses in their records to identify her.  But where does the grain of truth end and fiction begin?  Most sources of her story that survive are are from Plays - made for beauty, poetry and enjoyment.  So naturally, there is embellishment and intense stylization.  Some would say she is only fiction - this is not true.  But it could be true.  Each story must be disentangled and interpreted on its own - for all stories contain lies, and one must always read around the corners.

*       *       *

Now, I think some here, such as you Zephiris, are taking a rather literal, extreme position on what constitutes as "lore".  To not know the place in Lore of emotion most extreme when it comes to Kitsune makes me think you are missing the blindingly obvious.  Lore does not need to say, "foxes are intensely emotional"; it becomes clear in the stories themselves.  As far as other sources go, traditional Japanese medicine recognizes fox possession - there are diagnostic remarks recorded by Buddhist Monks that I remember which state, more or less, "his behavior is so extreme, and his habits are so given to excess, that only a fox could be driving his wild desires".  Read the symptoms which accompany fox possession.  Most all of these symptoms stem from intensified emotional reaction of some kind.

I simply must agree with you, Kira - spot on - these things can either be harnessed like sails harness wind - or they can blow you off course.  Emotions can be intensely experienced by oneself or intensely felt from others - in my experience, extremity of both is the norm.  Being a being split in two forms can do that to you.


Over and Out 

If you notice most stories when it comes to kitsune emotions, theres pretty much a moral to the story, "dont piss off the kitsune" XD, Ive noticed this in myself, if Im treated well I treat them well back if not more so, Ill go out of my way to make those people happy, specially when Im given something without asking, but the min someone 'attacks' me or those I care about be it physically, mentally or emotionally, Ill attack back and give it back to them x10. Rage I think is something kitsune's 'never' handle well, though I've learned to hold back a bit, I still have to rant in some way shape or form, that or get revenge some other tricky way lol.

And honestly I think its natural that Kitsune's are more empathetic compared to humans, I mean look at other species of animals, their empathy is extreamly high I remember how my dogs sassy and lightning would always come and cheer me up when I was extreamly sad and I didnt have to 'call' to them they just knew and came to me. I think humans as a species just have a major habbit of blocking out things they dont want to deal with, that includes empathy. Then there is the fact their not really taught how to use it, (nor do their religions believe or support it) and that can be extreamly hard on someone who has empathetic abilities specially as a kid at school, I speak from personal past experience on that one. 

[Kira]

 
Well, I think foxes handle rage extremely well. Especially the focussing and unleashing part.
 
But yeah, we're very closely tied to emotions, including our own. It's a sea of calm and rage that we must be able to navigate. But it is not up to us whether that sea will be raging or quiet, but to those around us.
 
"Don't piss of the fox."
That actually sounds pretty good.
A shame so few people seem to get that advice.
 
And even those who do, they do not accept us as we are.
 
Oh well.

[Takumi-no-Kitsune]

I agree. My emotions are very deep and profound. Unfortunately, they go by so misunderstood. 

[Fujo Jigen]

I think we all have the issue of being misunderstood....alot.... I dont know how many times Ive had to explain something to someone 10 times before they finally get it, one 'ex-friend' of mine (shes the one who cut all ties) had the issue of never letting me finish talking/explaining and forced us into arguments constantly so I think people just dont have enough patience to listen and try to understand a kitsune like a kitsune does for people. It tends to get a bit one sided alot...

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