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[Zephiris]

Meh. The only "13-element system" I know of comes from the very obvious and well-known piss-poor roleplaying guide.
I've never heard it associated with Shinto, either. AFAIK, Shinto 'sometimes' (along with the rest of asian culture seemingly) has five elements (wood, fire, earth, metal, and water), but mostly doesn't seem to play that game.
I tend to prefer the periodic table of elements. ._.

[Seeker]

Meh. The only "13-element system" I know of comes from the very obvious and well-known piss-poor roleplaying guide.

That guy got it from the author of kitsune:japan's fox, while I never got around to reading the beast, secondhand information says that the author got it from an interview with a fox-cult priestess. I looked a bit and couldn't find any other source for the 13-element thing, including the names for the elemental foxes.

Of course as I've said before I really didn't put as much effort into it as it deserves, so I'm probably missing something obvious.

[matoa]

I tend to prefer the periodic table of elements. ._.

I have an affinity for manipulating a complex solution of hydrogen dioxide, even though that stuff can be really dangerous at times.

 

[Zephiris]

Meh. The only "13-element system" I know of comes from the very obvious and well-known piss-poor roleplaying guide.

That guy got it from the author of kitsune:japan's fox, while I never got around to reading the beast, secondhand information says that the author got it from an interview with a fox-cult priestess. I looked a bit and couldn't find any other source for the 13-element thing, including the names for the elemental foxes.

Of course as I've said before I really didn't put as much effort into it as it deserves, so I'm probably missing something obvious.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3870634/Kitsune-Japans-Fox-of-Mystery-Romance-and-Humor-by-Kiyoshi-Nozaki

Search of online copy, and downloaded PDF (which is linked from Foxtrot's page) provides no results for element, and no relevant notes of 13 or thirteen, and I looked around before saying I hadn't heard of any sources besides bad roleplaying guide for '13 element myth'.
However, there is a mention of '13 kinds of foxes' (but not more than four 'kinds' are mentioned, NONE of which mentioned are elemental in nature)...in the Kitsune-tsuki section. The Kitsune-tsuki section is well-remembered for its clinical diagnosis of the mentally ill suffering from this basically Japanese-only psychological condition. There's nothing mystical about the section. Maybe Foxtrot completely misunderstood. Either way, he pulled it pretty far out of his ass.

[Seeker]

Really? I knew Lahaise was a bad source but wow. also, I've already got it, I just haven't read it because I'm lazy.

[Kuro]

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[Zephiris]

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

I know you're just being an ass for kicks, but if you're talking about 'things which should be verifiable', like that would commonly be available in libraries and online, it's a good idea to cite references, no? Otherwise especially when there are mountains of contradictory evidence, it looks like you're just making stuff up about Shinto and elements, unless of course you are.

Really? I knew Lahaise was a bad source but wow. also, I've already got it, I just haven't read it because I'm lazy.

For the pathologically lazy (not saying you are Seeker, although not flipping through to chapter 23 -is- pretty lazy hehe), I'll just have to quote the context, but type it out:

KITSUNE-TSUKI, or fox-possession, is a very strange case seen only in Japan. In the Occident, there was demon-possession, or wolf-possession--but not the fox-possession as prevailing in the Orient, especially in Japan.

Kitsune-tsuki was seem in Japan as early as in the closing years of the Heian Era (781-1185). The story of a woman possessed by a fox who repaid the kindness of a samurai for returning her fox-ball appearing in The Konjaku Monogatari is believed to be the first case of Kitsune-tsuki given in a book.
The origin of Kitsune-tsuki is remote, and it is interesting to read its historical record. Judging by the record, it is clear that Kitsune-tsuki was prevalent a disease from 800 or 900 years ago at least in Japan. A scholar of ancient times says in his book the following concerning this case of Kitsune-tsuki as follows:

"There are various kinds of Kitsune with their power of witchery--high-class Kitsune, and low-class kitsune. When possessed by a high-class kitsune, it is difficult to notice any difference in the way of bewitchery. According to a certain kannagi (maiden of the shrine who divines things, besides having other duties), there are 13 kinds of foxes with their different methods of witchery, such as celestial foxes, earthly foxes, black foxes, white foxes, and so forth. Such foxes are strange and fantastic."

So...*count*...at best, that's fourth-hand information (not counting Kuro's near-repeating of roleplay source), from a shrine maiden, not substantiated by any other known non-connected accounts(?), put in two separate peoples' books (the latter book citing NEITHER previous source nor identifying them via any means, which further erodes credibility), while shrine workers and priests are allegedly not too condusive toward kitsune, and none of it mentions elements, or anything to be considered elemental. Nevermind further butchering by the roleplaying moron guy. ._. It makes a girl wonder how anyone could have EVER cited such roleplaying trash as being relevant, or how the slightly more authoritative book was even published referencing many many previous published works throughout the book, but having little to no citation or attribution, although apparently standards for non-fiction books were more lax in 1961, in Japan anyway.
At least Alynna was quite clear on her personal feelings about both before: http://forums.kitsuhana.org/index.php/topic,29.msg273.html#msg273

[Seeker]

I think we've got a bit of a semantics break here. Stupid english.

I don't think we're all arguing about the same thing. Some seem to be talking about what is(like there's x,x,x, and x types of energy in the extant universe) while others are discussing their system of classifying and using energy as it pertains to practice and belief while in both cases using the concept of an "element system." So when A says they disagree with B's elemental system(latter definition), B thinks A is trying to declare theirs(A's) more fitting for the former definition, a right arrogant thing to say. Except A never actually said that. Not knowing this, B is understandably offended and tells A to fuck off.

At least that's my thought. Any similarity to real life events or people is purely coincidental.

Maybe there's some fruit to bear from talking about what is, although I don't think we'd get anywhere. But I thought we were just talking about what we use... I've been working a six-type system lately, not because I think there's only six elements but because I only *use* those six. I could see for a large and ambitious work I might like a much more specialized system with dozens of classifications, each with a specific meaning and will behind it.

[Zephiris]

Firstly, do you really expect humans to understand more than they can touch and experience by themselves?  Secondly, it's rather funny that you, Zephiris, say that I am reciting rolephay, because much of what you hold to be your "personal experience" can be found in any teenagers' guide to wicca and the occult. 

Thirdly, the last time I checked, Celestial was indeed one of our elements.

Yeah, buddy.  Fuck off. 

...yeah, I think you have me confused with someone else. The only thing I can think of that happened, is you got someone else to paraphrase what I said, because you couldn't muster reading for yourself. I was saying that you were almost parroting it, not that you were reciting it verbatim, NOT that you were using that as your gospel. Your suggestion is rather strong that you are, and the ever-kneejerk reaction doesn't help, but that wasn't my point, and that's not what I was trying to say. Obviously when you kneejerk, make accusations of roleplay, it looks as if you're hysterically defending the roleplay material, rather than asserting your own position. Foxtrot's guide IS roleplay, if you don't know that...then dear lord. That's just very not good.
ALL of the roleplaying, sourcey...gobbledygook, including the second, third, and fourth-hand sources, are all poorly cited and dubious anyhow. ...as if that's NOT the terribly obvious thing that anyone should point out when people apparently miss it. I probably shouldn't have expected you to understand anything or agree to practical, common-sense concepts like 'roleplaying sources are roleplay, not relevant'.

Nothing of what I've said could ever be misconstrued as wicca, occult, anything newage-y, or anything remotely similar? Have you read such books, enough to know off-hand what they presumably contain? I don't roleplay, I'm about as pathologically straight-laced as they come. I'm sure you could ask anyone, not that you'd trust such corroboration, even from your peers. What's the point of RP? It's a bizarre social contrivance. There's nothing particularly intellectually stimulating about it, nothing to get adrenaline going, nothing that makes much sense. Fantasy is fantasy. I don't care much if someone does or doesn't, just that they can separate fantasy and games and desires and dreams and whatever-the-hell-else from reality. I prefer making myself useful, constructive tasks and all.
I must've missed the brochures being handed out. No reason to pretend to be someone else if you're content and secure with yourself.  You're the teenager, or were you able to forget? You don't get to attempt to paint me with the paranoid psychological fears you apparently have about yourself. Not everyone is 19 and lost and insecure about everything.
Teen Angst: Some people grow out of it, not Kurt Cobain, though.

Kitsune don't have elements. Although I guess if you want to have elements, you can always start with always amusingly defensive, and end with doesn't read. Suit yourself with the head-in-sand-but-still-trying-to-scream.

And yeah, humans are silly with myth. After all, they thought that myobu were somehow good and wise and useful. I'm relatively certain you lack any impediment to reassure yourself of your inability to be wrong, and your general superiority to everything. I wonder if there's any parallel to Imperial Japanese emperors deifying themselves according to Law, especially since around here it's apparently cool to reference The Japanese as often as possible.

[Kirara Munashi'i]

I would not be surprised if the original was really a fox

Yeah. A furry fox.

[Ghost Rider]

Well, seems we've gotten into some confusion here.

In any case, I am posting this Bagua or Yantra for the I-Ching here.  It is useful for many things - divination, elemental work and meditation.  I agree that one must not follow tradition for traditions sake, but I kindly beg to differ that this system is not out of date.  Its usefulness lies in its unique combination of mathematical certainty and poetic elegance, and I know not one that is so exact yet beautiful.  More than any system I know, it traces the interactions between the elements and tells you about them. Also, this arrangement of the elements in this order is a recent discovery.

Each line around the Yin~Yang represents one of the Hexagrams, made up of two Trigrams.  Each is made of two of these 8 elements.  The Element the line originates from goes on the bottom - it is the cause, or potential energy.  The Element the line ends on goes on the top - it is the effect, or manifest energy.

Now I will explain how this system works for me.  I think we should turn discussion to describing our systems and sharing how they work for us.  I hardly think conversation need be limited to only one system or arguing over what that one system should be.  Rather, the virtues of each system should be discussed, yes?  It amuses me that there can be so many... heated discussions, when most of these systems share the same elements, regardless of their origin... how do you feel when you work with a river, as opposed to a lake?  Chat about that.

Well, to begin with, I will describe one example to show how this system works, and another.  The first thing I want to note is that my experience shows that the element of "heaven" is equivalent to what most of you seem to consider "celestial"; it has relation to Prana, the Vital Nature and energy of Air, as well as having a connection to heavenly beings.  All these 8 elements proceed from the Void at the center - Void is subtlest, not matter itself but matter proceeds from it.  It is pure Vibration and the boundary past the Physical.  When one combines these elements in Yoga, one experiences what I call Cosmic Energy, an "element", if it could be separated from the experience.  Finite and Infinite are one.  Beyond this point one enters that which cannot be spoken about, because it is divinity beyond language.



Element systems are practical ways of keeping track of physical, mental, astral, spiritual, and emotional interactions.  As Beings here we all are made up of these "elements", among others.  They are useful for energy work as well.  Here is an example of the meat-and-bones of the system.  The element "Stream" above "Lake" represents Time.  Time is best described by a River, don't you think?  A river that flows, furthermore, from between conscious and unconscious into the Lake of infinite unconscious memory.  Good for meditation.  The reverse of this Hexagram is Lake over a River.  Drain.  Simple, poetic, and powerful way to describe the flow of energy.  This hexagram, incidentally, is associated in China with ghosts, vampires and Huli Jing - you - for their Yin qualities of energy draining.  "Meditation" is described with "Air" over "Earth/Yin" - that is, pure Receptive Consciousness below, Infinite Consciousness above. 

* * *

 I use the 8 elements in tandem with simple energy work with what I observe; that is to say, I have observed and felt an uncountable number of elements.  We all have.  Every person has a different energy, as does every weather system, plant and subtle realm of mental experience.  I work with these in my life with this framework of 8 elements in mind, and it works well for me.  Plus, it integrates with Yoga well, and it is beyond useful in Tai Chi, Chi Gong and Martial arts, where it has been infinitely elaborated on.  It is also the way I experience energy - how do you?


Here is a link to another picture, which is better for reference and less intense.
http://guiserfox-themummer.deviantart.com/art/Bagua-Yantra-of-the-Elemens-120190959


As for other systems, I think that element Icosahedron is wonderful, Kira.  Great for visualization.  Most of the same elements, as well, so for me adaptable.  I don't know about you, but I'm a big fan of Sacred Geometry, and that arrangement has both simplicity and beauty - and I like how it can either be 2 or 3 dimensional   Also, Seeker, I once used a six - element system as well, mostly due to work with the Planets.  I have used 12 element systems before, for study of Harmonics.  And when I study physics, I use electrons, quarks, Space/Time, Light, Chaos and Probability.  Use the right tool for the job, I say.  And the right Yantra for the right Prayer.  There Ain't Just One. 

Signing Out
~Big C in the Sky~

[Kirara Munashi'i]

I believe it was used as an oracle, yes.

[Ghost Rider]

Yes, this system was and is used for divination.

The way one uses this oracle is thus: take three coins - traditionally, for the sake of symbolism, Chinese coins, round with a square hole in the middle (representing Heaven and Earth, respectively) are used, though any will do.  I like the old fashioned silver, myself.  Heads stands for three, or yang, tails two, or yin.  Toss them six times.  Each time, add up the number resulting from the three coins.  This number will give you one of four lines. 

The number six stands for "old yin", or a broken line which will soon become a solid line.  Like this:  __x__ .  The number 7 stands for "young yang", and is a simple solid line - _____.  The number eight stands for "young yin", and is an unchanging broken line: __  __.  Nine stands for "old yang" - a solid line which will break, thus: __ø__.  Numbers are read from bottom to top, in the order tossed, from first to sixth.  Reading thus gives you one hexagram that shows the present energy, and the changing lines represent what will become, or how these energies will change.  At times, there may be no changing lines.  And each changing line carries its own significance - and there is much material for interpretation.

So, in each reading there are two hexagrams.  One now, the other unfolding - the first is before the changing lines change, the second after.  Example: if you tossed the coins six times, and got the numbers 9, 6, 6, 6, 8, 7, here would be your reading: 


Mountain proceeding from Thunder, or "Nourishment":



Becomes Fire proceeding from Air, or the "Hearth":



*       *        *

Here is a link to a site I just found which has a translation on the book of changes, which includes details on each hexagram, and interpretations of each changing line; it is one useful translation.

http://theabysmal.wordpress.com/synaptic-calendar-links/?referer=sphere_related_content/

And wikipedia has information on the original technique, which used 50 yarrow stalks and a complex method of counting, rather than coins, whose system was invented in AD rather than BC.  It also has info on a number of other interesting techniques using dice, marbles, and rice rather than coin tossing or yarrow stalks, some more accurate  to the correct probability than others.

It is a bit technical, but I think this post should be helpful to any who wish to know the basics about the oracular process involved.



Over and Out

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