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[Kirara Munashi'i]

There are tales where a human has become a kitsune

Who can say why the foxes dance?
Why they spin, caper and prance?

Really? Please point it out to me, I'm interested in reading it (not sarcasm).

So the two of you would choose to take the human path and discriminate one who walks his own path regardless of what others say or what the dominant opinion is? You would brand a single person eternally with a clicheé?

"The human path?" Who is discriminating who, Kira? And I'm not branding anyone anything. I just simply agreed with Zephiris on the fact that Taoki speaks nonsense. Maybe not 100% of the time, because I've seen really good posts made by him, but I would at least say 90% of the time it is crap (because you have to weave through all this junk just to get something meaningful out of a single post). Personally, I think that could be avoided by organising his thoughts better since it seems he doesn't more than half the time and just spews forth everything that comes to mind just as soon as it pops up. And I don't even dislike Taoki, you can ask him yourself. The problem is the guy is hard-headed and needs a wake up call back to reality a lot. So, branding him? Not really.

If anything, rather than taking offence to other people criticising him, he should use it (the information) to become a better person. And as far as I know (from knowing him as long as I have), there isn't really anything I find untrue about Zephiris' statements. I wish Taoki would shape/grow-up.

[Taoki]

Taoki is as Taoki does. The dominant opinion, particularly among a very small subset of people, does not automatically equal truth, sanity, or logic. Mob mentality has been used to lynch and burn how many people over the years? Including the recent random and senseless persecution of muslims and virtually anyone of apparent middle-eastern (including a few unfortunate Pakistanis) descent. (Though I do recall a large group of furries screaming 'nuke them all, NUKE THEM ALL!' in 2001 as well, with not one person willing to say it was a bad/absurd/moronic notion.)

I'm not the only kitsune on the internet nor in this forum who tends to dislike humanity and may say bad things about them. Actually almost half of the kin I know from different places tell me they believe humanity is bad. It's not something that goes that far as mob mentality or "nuke them all" in every case though. We all have our things we like, dislike, agree or disagree with... one can't be expected to love everyone and everything in existence. If you think I have something against humans because I'm bored and don't have who to pick on you are wrong.

Speaking of cliches, why does everyone brand everything allegedly-bad as somehow being human? There are a variety of humans better than any of us. Kitsune, especially the Inari folks, have never been innocent enough to cast the first stone. Read, for once: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman
As far as I can tell, the only reason to ascribe 'everything bad' (particularly unfounded) to humanity, is simply insecurity about yourself, wanting to 'distance yourself' at any cost from humans, which generally wouldn't be necessary unless you are, or fear you are.
Humans have done a lot of bad things, so has absolutely everything else, and most of it continues undeterred to this day. Humanity has absolutely nothing on the number of individuals, species, races, that some part of the kitsune species has decided to genocide mercilessly, same for dragons, and most everything else.

Humans better then any of us? I do believe there are many good humans out there who can be nicer then some of us are, but I don't think humanity as a whole is less "corrupted" then us at all (I'm mainly talking spiritually here, in comparing a human society with an otherkin species's). As far as I know we are generally creatures who try to mind our own lives, occasionally doing some cruel and unjust things at certain points but on a small scale. It isn't generally in us to ruin entire nations and millions of lives just to play with power or make governments creating fear and oppression whenever something seems immoral to a small bunch of us.

But regardless, even if humanity was made of nicer people and more evolved then kitsune are and we'd be truly evil compared to them, kitsune are still who I stick with and belong to forever. Kitsune are me and I am them, and I stand for us and sister kins as for family. Humans can make theirselves our friends, allies, or on other worlds where they are nicer they can even be very close to us if they can win our love and respect

The last part is particularly funny since it seems to be based on your completely random misunderstanding of words. ._. Although, also amused that Taoki's apparent gender apparently keeps switching every day. Good to know.

Kitsune are shapeshifters. Shape shifting can, throughout many things, include gender shifting. Funny though as regardless of that, I never change my gender except temporarily in private RPs and consider myself a vixen calling myself "she" every time. I'm actually very curious as to where you seen me "switching gender every day" since I have no clue about that. Might have said something and forgotten it... I'm curious now

"The human path?" Who is discriminating who, Kira? And I'm not branding anyone anything. I just simply agreed with Zephiris on the fact that Taoki speaks nonsense. Maybe not 100% of the time, because I've seen really good posts made by him, but I would at least say 90% of the time it is crap (because you have to weave through all this junk just to get something meaningful out of a single post). Personally, I think that could be avoided by organising his thoughts better since it seems he doesn't more than half the time and just spews forth everything that comes to mind just as soon as it pops up. And I don't even dislike Taoki, you can ask him yourself. The problem is the guy is hard-headed and needs a wake up call back to reality a lot. So, branding him? Not really.

If anything, rather than taking offence to other people criticising him, he should use it (the information) to become a better person. And as far as I know (from knowing him as long as I have), there isn't really anything I find untrue about Zephiris' statements. I wish Taoki would shape/grow-up.

Believe me I do take this into consideration, although as I said I don't know in what way I am supposed to readjust my posts and what exactly and precisely I'm supposed to do. I just say what I know and believe on a given matter, and as for arranging my thoughts I already spent more then an hour and a half rereading and rewriting this single post. I'm only upset because I'm being criticized on something I am at least unclear about... it's beyond me why everyone sees everything I say as complete junk but I can't understand why exactly

[Kirara Munashi'i]

The last part is particularly funny since it seems to be based on your completely random misunderstanding of words. ._. Although, also amused that Taoki's apparent gender apparently keeps switching every day. Good to know.

Kitsune are shapeshifters. Shape shifting can, throughout many things, include gender shifting. Funny though as regardless of that, I never change my gender except temporarily in private RPs and consider myself a vixen calling myself "she" every time. I'm actually very curious as to where you seen me "switching gender every day" since I have no clue about that. Might have said something and forgotten it... I'm curious now

I have to step in here because this is another misconception people still seem to be confused about. Shapeshifting is something exaggerated by people who misinterpret mythology/folklore. If you notice, it mentions kitsuné actually disguise themselves through illusions rather than really shapeshift.


And about the rest of your post, I think we should talk in private. I'll add you to my Yahoo messenger.

[Kitsunami]

i stopped following this debate, but i can say, kitsune are not shape shifters.

Kitsune are masters of the mind and illusion. Well, most of them anyway.

You will not find a single tale where a kitsune 'shapeshifts', only where they use an illusion, which is usually broken by their tail or something.

[Taoki]

To go a bit deeper into the shapeshifting part and what I meant with that: As far as I know any spirit is capable of altering their physical form once they learn how to do that. The body in the astral world is not as "fixed in stone" as it is here, and to a certain point one can alter their physical shape through magic and concentration. There are likely limits as well... a kitsune probably can't change into a bug then into an elephant and back for instance, but I think it is possible to temporarily change your body's fur color, gender, even shift to a similar species astrally. The power to manipulate matter might be achieved by a spirit with growth.

[Kirara Munashi'i]

I think that is threading of very thing ice there, Taoki. Aparently you've found this method for "shapeshifting," so would you please share with the rest of the class how you go about it? (In a new thread of course.)

[Kuro]

Shapeshifting is impossible, Taoki.  And even disguise through illusion is difficult unless we make due with what we have. 

I practice the art everyday; I act.  And I pour my energy, talent, and effort into disguising myself as the hero who tirelessly strives for good, the villain who acts based on a deep-seeded hate, the tragedian who tries for love, wealth, beauty because of the lack of these in his life but ultimately fails, and meets a crushing end. 

Yeah, I'm probably being WAY too metaphorical, but if you want to see our craft as it can be applied right now, make yourself believable through actual disguise.

[The Blind Seer]

Shapeshifting is impossible, Taoki.  And even disguise through illusion is difficult unless we make due with what we have. 

I practice the art everyday; I act.  And I pour my energy, talent, and effort into disguising myself as the hero who tirelessly strives for good, the villain who acts based on a deep-seeded hate, the tragedian who tries for love, wealth, beauty because of the lack of these in his life but ultimately fails, and meets a crushing end.

Yeah, I'm probably being WAY too metaphorical, but if you want to see our craft as it can be applied right now, make yourself believable through actual disguise.

Seconded.

[Taoki]

I think that is threading of very thing ice there, Taoki. Aparently you've found this method for "shapeshifting," so would you please share with the rest of the class how you go about it? (In a new thread of course.)

Sure.

[Kitsunami]

Shapeshifting is simply impossible.

Illusions are not. I maintain the illusion that i am female, somehow, im not entirely sure how, but i guess its how i act, walk, talk, and stuff. I know for a fact that 90% of the time at work i will be called a girl by anyone taht doesnt know me.

[Zephiris]

I'm not the only kitsune on the internet nor in this forum who tends to dislike humanity and may say bad things about them. Actually almost half of the kin I know from different places tell me they believe humanity is bad. It's not something that goes that far as mob mentality or "nuke them all" in every case though. We all have our things we like, dislike, agree or disagree with... one can't be expected to love everyone and everything in existence. If you think I have something against humans because I'm bored and don't have who to pick on you are wrong.

...yeah, because reinforcing the point by saying "everyone else does it" has nothing AT ALL to do with mob mentality, right.
And no, I think you hate humanity because you clamor and bang your pots together and always claim to be the victim, therefor, there must always be an aggressor: humans who didn't really do anything wrong, but you exaggerate.

Humans better then any of us? I do believe there are many good humans out there who can be nicer then some of us are, but I don't think humanity as a whole is less "corrupted" then us at all (I'm mainly talking spiritually here, in comparing a human society with an otherkin species's). As far as I know we are generally creatures who try to mind our own lives, occasionally doing some cruel and unjust things at certain points but on a small scale. It isn't generally in us to ruin entire nations and millions of lives just to play with power or make governments creating fear and oppression whenever something seems immoral to a small bunch of us.

I said some humans are better than any of us. I'd probably call Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking better than any of us, although 'us', is being general. I'd still rather point to you and say 'hypocritical fucking human', because it's true. And...apparently you've never actually bothered to meet a single kitsune, if you think the entire fucking species is so brilliant and peaceful. Hell, the Inari sect is large enough that its attributable death toll increases every day. Not every one can say that.

Kitsune are shapeshifters. Shape shifting can, throughout many things, include gender shifting. Funny though as regardless of that, I never change my gender except temporarily in private RPs and consider myself a vixen calling myself "she" every time. I'm actually very curious as to where you seen me "switching gender every day" since I have no clue about that. Might have said something and forgotten it... I'm curious now

Everyone else, including Kuro, Kira, and just about anyone else I could name, randomly refers to you as he or hir. You don't notice?

<snip>... it's beyond me why everyone sees everything I say as complete junk but I can't understand why exactly

Well THUR's yer problem.</quote>
Try empathizing with someone else, that is to say, put yourself in their shoes. Every day, you trundle over, come out half-cocked and talk about your wildest fantasies as if they're real and special and perfect (and that you are same) and everyone else should share in them, then you gasp and wonder why people are not amused. Every day. I've noted Alynna proverbially rolling her eyes more than once at this, even. If you talked about things with less fantasy, chances are, nobody would have to be rolling their eyes or feeling less-than-amused. Same goes de-facto for Kira et al.

[GoldKitsu]

*nods* Well that doesn't actually follow from what you listed but it is an explanation that makes sense.  I could also say reincarnation is wiping away just our memories and letting us be born again.

GoldKitsu,
I believe I may have come up with an explanation for the "past lives having a bearing on the present one" issue.  The knowledge we gain may be used in a future life unconsciously, sort of like when we learn to swim, eat, have sex, and so on and so forth.  The first time one does any of these things, we are awkward and clumsy at it, but with time, we learn how to do them better, more efficiently, etcetera, to the point where when we perform these actions, it is as much instinctual as anything else.

The idea behind this is that there's a presence behind our physical bodies that has not been developed in this life or determined by our bodily chemistry (the 'soul'), and while that presence may not manifest itself consciously, it is nontheless directing our thoughts and/or actions to some degree.

Kitsunami,
Where?

[The Blind Seer]

Aye, though I'm not sure the soul has its memories wiped.  I think the body is just denied access to them.  I believe there was an instance where someone spoke a language they didn't know, though I don't know the specifics off of the top of my head.  I could look for it, if you'd like.  I mentioned it because I think that could be proof that the soul doesn't have its memories wiped.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by that not following from what I said.

[Taoki]

...yeah, because reinforcing the point by saying "everyone else does it" has nothing AT ALL to do with mob mentality, right.
And no, I think you hate humanity because you clamor and bang your pots together and always claim to be the victim, therefor, there must always be an aggressor: humans who didn't really do anything wrong, but you exaggerate.

So if I dislike a group who I believe hurt me and point out that I'm not the only one who does I have mob mentality? *Can't help imagining herself as a gang vixen holding a tommygun and mobbing banks and restaurants with the mafia while hearing that

And I feel like a victim because I am powerless in a world led wrongly and hilariously by people who do what they want. If I am to include myself in such a social classification (mobster, cop, etc.) I think I best fit as a freedom hungry revolutionary of sorts

And...apparently you've never actually bothered to meet a single kitsune, if you think the entire fucking species is so brilliant and peaceful. Hell, the Inari sect is large enough that its attributable death toll increases every day. Not every one can say that.

If you meant in this life of course I haven't met any kitsune. Physically I live in a country where otherkin are extremely rare and neither astrally because I'm not able to astral project yet. From what I noticed however most of us are generally nice and tend to care for each other unless we are hurt. I know many nogitsune are cruel and careless and even some kitsune courts are heavily corrupted, but I think kitsune and kin in general do at least try to stay on a nice path when they can.

Everyone else, including Kuro, Kira, and just about anyone else I could name, randomly refers to you as he or hir. You don't notice?

Didn't notice or if I did I probably forgot... I don't pay much attention to these things. I do remember Kira likes addressing people as their gender in this life so he probably does call me a he. It's their choice as to calling people by spiritual gender or real life gender however... it doesn't mean I change gender every day like you stated.

Try empathizing with someone else, that is to say, put yourself in their shoes. Every day, you trundle over, come out half-cocked and talk about your wildest fantasies as if they're real and special and perfect (and that you are same) and everyone else should share in them, then you gasp and wonder why people are not amused. Every day. I've noted Alynna proverbially rolling her eyes more than once at this, even. If you talked about things with less fantasy, chances are, nobody would have to be rolling their eyes or feeling less-than-amused. Same goes de-facto for Kira et al.

I talk about "fantasist" beliefs in an easy way because I am not used to regarding them as something impossible that could never become true. I believe in the astral world holding a lot of possibilities which many would consider fantasist, I believe in pocket realms, I believe reality can be broken even if extremely difficult (and hope that it will in 2012 as many of us expect), I believe in a happy and safe world being possible to create in the universe, and I am generally used to state it openly (probably from private chats since I talk most open about these things there). Me perfect? I'm far from even being good let alone perfect, although compared to many things in this world I do consider I am sitting in a good spot.

Guess I just speak my own language which only seems normal to me and have some views which only I share and regard as simple and normal. But I got used to being different over the time... best solution would probably be for me to post less often since I cannot judge what annoys everyone in every post I make As my purpose isn't to come here and be an annoyance to everyone you will likely be hearing less often from me since that's probably the best choice.

Also Zephiris, if you wish to continue this discussion it's best we do it in private or on IRC, since we're both taking this highly off topic to discussing personal debates and my description. I honestly feel tempted to discuss more with you in private about this, but for one thing talking to me is probably the last thing on Earth you want to do and I'd get kicked all over the place if I even tried getting near you. If you want to however feel free to message me about it.

[The Blind Seer]

If I am to include myself in such a social classification (mobster, cop, etc.) I think I best fit as a freedom hungry revolutionary of sorts.

I really can't see you as a freedom-hungry revolutionary of any measure.  You remind me more of a kid who whines behind their parent's backs, and when they finally get the courage to stand up to their parents, any show of force or dominance will return them to their 'secretly rebellious' state. (I have nothing against you, just stating how I see you.)

Kirara is an example of a 'freedom-hungry revolutionary.'  Not you.

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