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[The Blind Seer]

I have an interesting theory I just came up with out of nowhere.  I'm not saying I believe it, nor am I saying it is the absolute truth.  'Tis only speculation, nothing more.  But still, I would like to share it.

First, a couple of basic assumptions:

1) It takes 100 years to get a tail as a kitsune. Deleted due to irrelevancy.
2) Some Kitsune were, at one point in time, foxes. (Karen A Smyers, "The Fox and The Jewel")
3) Reincarnation does exist.
4.1) Kitsune are reincarnated as humans.
4.2) Humans have been around for thousands of years.  Surely they must be pretty old and experienced, spiritually.
4.3) Natural foxes, while not the lowest ranking for intelligence, are surely not the highest.  Therefore, even if a fox were to be reincarnated over and over as a fox, it still would not gain any 'human' intelligence. This means that, while they may get pretty good at existing as a fox and dealing with wilderness-related issues from a fox's perspective, they gain no knowledge of anything solely related to living life as a human.

Now, If all kitsune were foxes originally, when they become a fox spirit and are reincarnated as a human, they'd be pretty naive in their first lifespan (or even their first couple of lifespans).  Now, since kitsune get a tail every hundred years, they get a new tail approximately every other lifespan as a human.  This means that To reiterate, some kitsune spend at least one lifespan as a naive-kitsune-just-turned-human.  This does not mean that every naive, immature person out there is a kitsune... and, as I said, I don't particularly subscribe to the theory, myself.  I haven't thought about it enough, for one thing.  But maybe, maybe some of those naive people are telling the truth.

Conclusion:
Maybe the very fact that some of these naive people claim to be kitsune can be a little more believable simply because they're so naive.

Some interesting problems with this theory:
1) There are a lot of humans born every day, more than those that die the same day.  Surely some of those humans are 'newborns,' as well.  Of course, they may just be other animals (like the spirits of those we've killed in our quest for global urbanization) that have spiritually evolved into a human form over time, or they may have a similar background to the kitsune ('other' spirits that have taken human form for the first time).
2) Since humans can be reincarnated as 'lesser' animals such as foxes, some foxes may have spent a lifetime as a human before... which means they wouldn't necessarily be naive, as they might have lived at least one lifetime as a human.
3) In addition, the amount or type of lifetimes one has had before does not necessarily impact the actions or intelligence one may have in any given lifetime (unless such knowledge is instinctually used, not consciously used).

Anyone have any comments?  Don't be afraid to shoot bullet holes all through this theory.  That's what I'm posting it for.  ^^

[Edit] I deleted this thread by accident, thinking I'd misread the board description.  I placed it here again because I realized I'd read it correctly.  *blushes*

[Edit Two] By now, I think this theory has been effectively shot down... thank you, everyone who participated, for taking the time to seriously consider this!

[Zephiris]

Well, I suppose this is just as far as I'm concerned this is how things are. Everyone else has their own opinion, of course.

1( Kitsune have one tail. This stays that way. An extreme minority are born, never made, with two or more, a minor but "amusing" birth defect; most commonly caused by extensive unchecked inbreeding for an extensive length of time. Nobody answers the obvious question. A tail is for balance. How do you balance, sit, or even function normally with 3, 5, 7, 9? Wouldn't the excessive counterweight cause serious balance problems, be bulky, constantly get in the way? Is there an actual use for it? How did that come to be? Why? Nevermind all of the connotations people say with somebody else "deciding to give tails based on merit", which were not-so-artfully dodged. (Who decides that? How can they do that? Why were they given such authority, particularly with so many dissimilar kitsune sects which almost assuredly would not agree on a central authority?) Or that, if most kitsune live well, well beyond 1000 years, wouldn't that make the overwhelming population having 9 tails? The longer you live, the larger the population that is well into adulthood. Natural birth rate would have to be beyond phenominal-crazy to make even 10, 15% of any sect to be considered young enough to still be adolescent (let alone infantile). Thus everyone claiming 'ultimate power' (like some people, even on this very board, shocking) from nine tails, being more than slightly dishonest about it? No matter how you hash it, it holds up about as well as boiling spaghetti noodles.

2( Foxes happen to have a resemblance to kitsune. It's akin to saying a lizard eventually becomes a dragon because they both have scales. Most kitsune are decently well educated, not animalistic, not even a little, nor are they prone to 'fox behaviors'. They don't run around after shinies, don't pee on things to mark territory, don't eat rabbits (not that there -are- usually such things commonly available). Kitsune do not originate with Earth, nor is there a time at which most resemble an animal in particular, not even when just born. It's vaguely awing to see a newborn making soft noises and already trying to understand the world. Doctors I've asked (there, not here, obviously), assert that fussing and crying is relatively rare, unless something's wrong, in the range of 1-3%.

3( Dunno if reincarnation exists or not perse. For astral beings, it's kinda different. You're either alive, or you're not. Incarnate bodies are not a replacement, but rather an additional problem to deal with. The astral body does not cease existing, or cease having needs, just because there's a meatbag vying for attention. I suppose the average isn't that far from each other, but the upper bound on astral bodies is considerably more durable. It's not free, though. A human can exercise their entire lives. They still get squished flat if a wall falls over on top of them. It's not an elitist view, just a practical assessment, but it's not as if someone's born or made that way, either.

4.1( A lot of things can technically be wrapped in a human shell, with a more-or-less degree of success. Most wouldn't wish it on their enemies, though, assuming they know about Earth.
4.2( Most humans usually don't resemble much of anything 'alive'. A few, though. As far as I'm aware, a significant majority simply die. Some go 'someplace else', from what I've told. Unlike other things, that's not something I've seen with my own eyes. Some, apparently, evolve. By the time a human gets a real spiritual essence, they're not human anymore. Go figure. But, it seems like most of the time, that's not spontaneous, either. It seems like they're already 'most of the way there', just keep on going. Some fail, though.

4.3( Foxes, while cute, aren't much smarter than dogs or wolves. So-called 'awakened' animals are excessively rare, but will likely remain as they are for the indefinite future. I'm not personally aware of any animals that have transcended as-such, but I am aware of one or two that aren't mere electricity wrapped in a meat burger.

It's not so much naiveté. Thus far, everyone around here I've met, at least, is far from naive. The minority will lie simply to hear themselves talk, wail, and generally make drama. A lot appear to be trying to wrap their head around things. And it looks like perhaps only Alynna, beside myself, have any astral perception at all, which, generally speaking, is sort of a prerequisite for an astral-native being. Some just forget, or have other problems, though.

People often confuse kitsune with 'fox therians', totemics, or 'werefoxes', all of which are radically different. Most things have some kind of 'spirit', at least some temporary essence which keeps things going, arises from electrical impulses, maybe, but AFAIK, it's mostly astral-native things which have a durable, permanence of essence that stays no matter how many years they're alive. But, nothing lasts forever. To the Japanese, a hundred years, a thousand years, seemed like 'forever', beyond forever, particularly when 'old age' was generally considered 32-or-less the world over.

I personally know of some kitsune not more than a few weeks old with more sense than some people. But I digress.

Human collectivity as a whole can put on a good show, but, no offense, things are pretty...messed up, in case it's not obvious from every news headline from here back to 4000BC. ._.

Mrf, most everything I talk about, with noted exceptions, are almost always what I've personally been privy to, seen with my own eyes, had to live through. Most theories, ideas, I keep to myself unless someone as explicitly about it, in which case, they're probably not someone random. I don't much care if someone wants to poke holes. Feel free. Most anyone with even a modicum of sense can look for themselves, of course, which I encourage, but understand not everyone will, or potentially can on their own.

You asked for bullet holes, and between the fact that you're new, and that I generally respect Kirara's views, I decided to oblige. Hope you don't mind. If there's one thing I'll do when asked, it's telling things as objectively as I can.

[GoldKitsu]

In response to the blind seer, most of your assumptions can be stated as axioms and then view the consequences of it, though some aren’t stated as axioms, 4.2 and 4.3 to be exact.  Those make assumptions without stating their underlying axioms, and aren’t direct consequences of 1 to 4.1. 

Your first theory is that they are a fox spirit and reincarnate as human they would be pretty naïve.  Well that makes the assumption that our total accumulated knowledge from all lives always has bearing on the current life.  If not than it can come down to experience, nature, and personal choices.  Do we have to have access to past experience to not be naïve?

Your problem you list, who knows for certain how it works.  There are likely more theories than there are people currently living on Earth.  Those that people who have died have held.

For Zephiris I only have response to your one and two at the moment.  Ultimate power is quite subjective as well as multiple tails need not be directly tied to the physical rules of this universe.  As for two you don’t talk on evolution much.  Dragons can evolve from lizards for example, thus they might have a lot of the instincts of such.  Kitsune can have vulpine instincts, now a persons experiences are an entirely different question.

[Kuro]

axioms

You keep using that word, and I do not think it means what you think it means.

[GoldKitsu]

Nope it means what I think it means as I was using it.

From wikipedia: "In both senses, an axiom is any mathematical statement that serves as a starting point from which other statements are logically derived. Unlike theorems, axioms (unless redundant) cannot be derived by principles of deduction, nor are they demonstrable by mathematical proofs, simply because they are starting points; there is nothing else from which they logically follow (otherwise they would be classified as theorems)."

[Kuro]

It was a movie quote.  Princess Bride ftw.

[GoldKitsu]

k.   And a movie quote has relevance to this in what way?

[Kuro]

It doesn't, it just fit in some odd way.  Randomness is the spice of life.

[GoldKitsu]

It doesn't, it just fit in some odd way.  Randomness is the spice of life.

Isn't that sort of derailing the topic?

[Kuro]

It wasn't until you failed to recognize the reference.

Hehe, is funy cus u'v deraild topix befor.

[Zephiris]

For Zephiris I only have response to your one and two at the moment.  Ultimate power is quite subjective as well as multiple tails need not be directly tied to the physical rules of this universe.  As for two you don’t talk on evolution much.  Dragons can evolve from lizards for example, thus they might have a lot of the instincts of such.  Kitsune can have vulpine instincts, now a persons experiences are an entirely different question.

And here I was, being polite by waiting for others to say something before responding to GoldKitsu. Oh well. Kuro fucks with another thread. Anyway.

As far as ultimate power, I was just referring to some of the things people say. "I sneeze and it makes rainbows across the whole universe" kinda stuff. No, few things quite correspond to the physical plane, but it's not to assume it's entirely different. It wouldn't be the first time someone sat or leaned wrong and caught their tail and found that quite distressing.

It's easy to say that nothing is even remotely the same. The newagers are particularly fond of that. A tail is not a vestigial instrument, though. It makes me curious if people have simply gotten that used to 'human stuff' after such a short period of time, but they move around, a lot. Prehensile counterbalance, among other things. How would a big 'blob' of tails work, though? Is there any function or notable reason for such a form?

As far as I can tell, multiple tails would only make sense if everything were, for lack of a better term, blobby. And if things were blobby, why need a tail to begin with? Why have ears? Tail? Teeth? Why be able to move, or push someone away, unless there's a reason for such form and function? Why do children and siblings still tend to look alike? It's not that random, or a mystery.

Dragons could theoretically evolve from single celled bacteria, too. A lot of changes, creations of species, are done intentionally. Who, why, from what, it depends, varies. I don't know if anyone made dragons in the first place, or kitsune in the first place, seems relatively likely, though. Lots of things considered relatively familiar were designed at some point, allowed to propagate themselves.

The 'old saying', though. Correlation does not equal causation. Just because two things look alike, even if there are similarities in some aspects of a small subset of behavior, it doesn't automagically mean one evolved into the other, or that one devolved into the other. Coincidence exists. There are only so many significantly different configurations that can be deemed familiar and/or bipedal or quadraped in theory. There's bound to be overlap at times. Some species could theoretically pass for human, if hiding 'extraneous appendages' and such. Now, if a kitsune -appeared- to someone, even if only to that person's mind, what would the general reaction be, of someone living 500+ years ago? "Ah! You kinda look like a fox! You say strange words I can't understand and your ears are down, they must be riddles~! Tricky! I'm better than that, fox, go away!" Someone recalls the tale at the local dispensary of alcoholic beverages, and...

Why do people insist that kitsune evolve from foxes, but not humans or anything else? There's more in common with generic humanoid shape (for which many races share to some degree), than there is with a four-legged canine digging up the ground, but, there's still nothing in particular in common with humans either, certainly from a basic species standpoint. No markers for derivation or commonality there either.

For all I know, though, someone engineered and seeded foxes at some point as a joke or insult. That's not something I could conveniently find out about. Nobody publicly admits things like that. It wouldn't quite be the first time such a thing ever happened, though.

[spectravixen]

all things most know of kitsune were writen by man some ar correct some are not that is were one must find there own answers and d there own search for the truth

[Kirara Munashi'i]

1( Kitsune have one tail. This stays that way. An extreme minority are born, never made, with two or more, a minor but "amusing" birth defect; most commonly caused by extensive unchecked inbreeding for an extensive length of time. Nobody answers the obvious question. A tail is for balance. How do you balance, sit, or even function normally with 3, 5, 7, 9? Wouldn't the excessive counterweight cause serious balance problems, be bulky, constantly get in the way?

This is true, but for actual foxes. Fox spirits are not particularly actual foxes, so the issues with balance and biology do not apply to them. If you look at Kami spirits in Shinto mythology, you'll notice the myriad of spirits who have very strange and impossible forms (for the rest of this answer see my response to number two).

Is there an actual use for it?

From what I can remember, I think I remember reading somewhere that fox spirits have been known to "rub their tails together" in order to create what is called 'fox fire.' Maybe that's one of the uses for the tails?

2( Foxes happen to have a resemblance to kitsune.

This is actually half-accurate. If you look at the way fox spirits are portrayed in old woodblook artwork, statues at Inari temples, and mentioned in the book "The Fox and the Jewel" by Karen Smyers you'll see there is definitely a vulpine-like resemblance, but the body is disfigured. Other body parts resembling things like the "body of a deer, neck of a swan, head of a fox, and an erect tail (normally only found in feline behaviour)."

And it looks like perhaps only Alynna, beside myself, have any astral perception at all, which, generally speaking, is sort of a prerequisite for an astral-native being. Some just forget, or have other problems, though.

Can you please define what you mean by "astral perception" and why only you and Alynna have this ability?

People often confuse kitsune with 'fox therians', totemics, or 'werefoxes', all of which are radically different. Most things have some kind of 'spirit', at least some temporary essence which keeps things going, arises from electrical impulses, maybe, but AFAIK, it's mostly astral-native things which have a durable, permanence of essence that stays no matter how many years they're alive. But, nothing lasts forever. To the Japanese, a hundred years, a thousand years, seemed like 'forever', beyond forever, particularly when 'old age' was generally considered 32-or-less the world over.

Quoted for emphasis.

I generally respect Kirara's views

Thank you, though I'm actually surprised you do.

Why do people insist that kitsune evolve from foxes, but not humans or anything else? There's more in common with generic humanoid shape (for which many races share to some degree), than there is with a four-legged canine digging up the ground, but, there's still nothing in particular in common with humans either, certainly from a basic species standpoint. No markers for derivation or commonality there either.

The reason for people thinking foxes "evolve" into kitsuné is because in many research pages and books, it states "all foxes are kitsuné." The problem with this is, it is not specific. People generally have the misconception the aforementioned phrase means "all foxes are Japanese fox spirits from mythology." This is why in my research document I wrote a section on Ethymology, to teach people "kitsuné" is simply the word for "fox" in Japanese. The way we use it (the word "kitsuné"), however, refers to the Japanese fox spirit in mythology and not the actual fox. Hopefully this helps to clear up the misconception a bit to others, as well.

[Tiocahn]

Interesting theory. Just curious, but would this also apply to fox spirits other than the Japanese variety (such as Chinese)?

The reason for people thinking foxes "evolve" into kitsuné is because in many research pages and books, it states "all foxes are kitsuné." The problem with this is, it is not specific. People generally have the misconception the aforementioned phrase means "all foxes are Japanese fox spirits from mythology." This is why in my research document I wrote a section on Ethymology, to teach people "kitsuné" is simply the word for "fox" in Japanese. The way we use it (the word "kitsuné"), however, refers to the Japanese fox spirit in mythology and not the actual fox. Hopefully this helps to clear up the misconception a bit to others, as well.

I was just about to ask about this, as I was under this impression as well. Thanks for the clarification.

[GoldKitsu]

Well as to foxes evolving into kitsune.  I believe them to be related, I don't see anything wrong with that viewpoint from a moral or potential aspect even if it might not be literally true. 

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