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[Kuro]

If a nogitsune who studied under Tamamo-no-Mae (whom you probably have no FUCKING clue about) says something about nogitsune, YOU FUCKING LISTEN.

[GoldKitsu]

Really now?  Why is that?  Because Tamano-no-mae is the ultimate authority there.  She has more than a scant faction to follow her?   

[Zephiris]

If a nogitsune who studied under Tamamo-no-Mae (whom you probably have no FUCKING clue about) says something about nogitsune, YOU FUCKING LISTEN.

You (and everyone else) may be wise to realize that: Kuro says that Salem says that Tamamo-no Mae says...is hearsay upon hearsay, similar to playing a game of telephone. Does Kuro, or anyone else, have standing to say "this is all there is to say about this group"? At most, unless you're actually a part of a particular group, and personally privy to significant amounts of information on that first-hand, it's conjecture, speculation, hearsay, or "I see a very small part of the picture of what goes on there, which I admit, but this might be fairly compelling reason to think this". Coincidentally, the latter is how I tend to approach "Myobu stuff".

Is it really that compelling to someone's argument to name drop, for that matter? Tamamo-no-Mae and Inari are, effectively, figureheads, mentioned in slightly aged human literature and legend, who may or may not exist in reality since I doubt anyone has a first-hand detailed account.

It's amusing that Kuro would call upon the name of Tamamo-no-Mae and doubting that anyone else knows jack shit, despite "having heard something through the grape vine", and that qualifies as expert knowledge, somehow?

Honestly, and I don't say it to be mean, but it might be a proper time for everyone (myself included) to brush up on logical fallacies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_Fallacy

Two example deductive fallacies (from Wiki).

The average family has 2.5 children.
The Smiths are an average family.
Therefore, the Smiths must have 2 or 3 children.

All birds have beaks.
That creature has a beak.
Therefore that creature is a bird.

[Seeker]

A lot of discussion sites have that article in the stickies somewhere. Might be a good add.

[GoldKitsu]

Yeah, this one became a lot of Fallacys.

[Kirara Munashi'i]

Le Sigh.

[Kuro]

yay for ignoring stickied discussions....-.-;  I get on a very high horse and do a lot of bluffing when I;m as irritated about things as many of these discussions have made me.  This is one of the cases where I let it get out of hand.  Now, please, don't mention it again.

[GoldKitsu]

I really wish it hadn't, maybe we could try it again.  dunno.

[Kirara Munashi'i]

There are a few things I'd like to comment on, though, before anything...

We are fairly loyal, which is why there are so few cases of nogitsune running rampant; they take care of their own and keep themselves rather well in control.  As for US, I dunno how you go about becoming one, I was just born into the familah.

Huh? What is this about being kept under control? Are you really that naive and full of yourself to believe that is true?

Nogitsune have a strong sense of independence and self reliance.   They will honor loyalty deeply.  But cross them and they will hate you.  As to self-policing, not as much as you think.  Very few nogitsune would form an army, when one makes trouble they typically do it alone.   There isn't as much take care of their own outside of direct family.

Although this is too generalised, it does fit most descriptions of a wild fox spirit's personality. Of course, even the term "wild" almost falls directly under this, considering it means they are free and do what is needed in order to survive and self-preserve, no matter how rash.

Really now?  Why is that?  Because Tamano-no-mae is the ultimate authority there.  She has more than a scant faction to follow her?

I'm unsure of what "scant faction" means, but please have more respect for Lady Tamamo. If you don't like her nor even believe in her, that's fine. But don't insult her again, at least not while I'm around. I don't follow Inari, but you don't see me "bashing" her. Thanks.

[spectravixen]

honestly who does it matter who a kitsune follows if anyone if it helps them to survive it is all on them.

[GoldKitsu]

Errr, no offense to Tamamo, I was just saying using that as an authority to talk about all doesn't work out.

[Kuro]

There are a few things I'd like to comment on, though, before anything...

We are fairly loyal, which is why there are so few cases of nogitsune running rampant; they take care of their own and keep themselves rather well in control.  As for US, I dunno how you go about becoming one, I was just born into the familah.

Huh? What is this about being kept under control? Are you really that naive and full of yourself to believe that is true?

Yep.

[Kirara Munashi'i]

Poor thing.

[GoldKitsu]

Well the best lessons are learned through experience, and sometimes they are really painful.

[Okori Tenko]

 Of Nogitsune...

 I won't claim to be any authority as a kitsune to know 'all about Nogitsune', but I have spent some time condemned as one, both by the kitsune society, and by the gods. I am -NOt- one now.

 As far as the mainstream of Nogitsune go, foremost is the idea of the term.

 Nogitsune does imply a number of things. Foremost is 'criminal'. For a kitsune to be named as a Nogistune, they have to have committed a crime, and are formally 'proven' as one. This can be done by any number of things.

 Examples:

 1. Turning away from the Path of Inari, even not knowingly. (One sin I had.)

 2. Unlawful killing. (Another sin I had.)

 3. Stealing.

 4. Cheating another wrongfully and knowingly.

 5. Forced coercion in various ways. (forced possession, robbery/thieving, rape.)

 These are all ways of becoming one style of Nogitsune. In the end, it's hard to turn back. Mine... was a dark secret that corrupted me, trying to find justice, and only ended up a killer. For that, I had to save the lives of others who should have been killed. That... was difficult to both accept and understand. Especially with three centuries of acting much like a Nogitsune, and being considered an 'Oni-Kitsu'. Some of the things I did were terrible... but I'm glad I've been redeemed, because at least now, knowing what it's like on both sides of the fence, I don't try to do what I have to just to please the gods. I do what they need me to do. I listen to their heart first, rather than following my own torn heart.

 I wanted revenge... but all I'd found was more blood to add to the pool that was started by the deaths of those I loved dearly. My ultimate nemesis's name?: Conspiracy.

 Not all Nogitsune are those who don't follow Inari, though in JAPAN, that's primarily how other Inarist kitsune view other kitsune whom follow other deities. (More or less, they view it as 'Turning your back on your mother'. IE. Disrespect.)

 Some kitsune don't follow any deity at all, thus being named Nogitsune. These are simply 'wild'.

 Remember that at times, 'painting with words' has a lot to do with how people view and understand the word spoken. Not always is the word 'Nogitsune' spoke with spite and damnation. Sometimes, it's just with mistrust.

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