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[GoldKitsu]

Some popular media like Inu Yasha implies that Youkai and Kami are the same thing.  A kami is a spirit, a youkai is at most in difference a kami that is an outsider.

Are they the same thing to you?

[tsukiyomaru0]

Well, in common sense, "Kami" means "God" and "Youkai" means "Ghost, apparition, phantom, spectre". However the best terms fit for Tanuki, Kitsune, Tengu and others are "Youkai", "Bakemono" or "Obakemono". Okay, "Bakemono" means something like "monster", but you shouldn't let the name pick on you... After all, the true monster is the human, no?

[Kuro]

What is with you people and your viewing humans as a second-class citizen?!  YOU ARE, AT THIS MOMENT, HUMAN.  For FUCK'S SAKE, accept it and realize that they do GOOD THINGS.  You're being elitist without a reason to be elitist, and it's just obnoxious.

Secondly, Myobu are more commonly referred to as kami because of our nature.  We report and act as the hand of a Goddess, therefore to most followers of the path, we're referred to as kami.

And technically, everything is a kami, it's just to varying degrees.  Everything has an energy, a spirit, which is what you feed from if you feed from nature.

[Seeker]

I don't watch much anime and don't know japanese.

Frankly, I've never thought semantics mattered much.

Regardless of whether they are different, they're related. By GK's definition Myobu are kami and Nogitsune are youkai... doesn't make any sense trying to fit the noose of human language around the throats of such broad categories.

[GoldKitsu]

They can to some people.   So really youkai is just a subset of kami and kami means any spirit at all.  Gods by the way are refered to as Kami-Sama.   

[Zalim]

Everyone's complaining about there being no new posts, so don't give me a hard time for posting in an old topic please.

It's a shame that, because of my relatively recent membership here, I was unable to partake in this discussion. Though, to be fair, I think most of the issue was stated well. I'd just like to add that one of the reasons there is so much confusion between the words youkai and kami isn't their definitions, but instead our definition of "god". It has to be understood that gods or thought of completely differently in Japanese culture. They are not necessarily all powerful, and are usually nothing like what often comes to mind when hearing the word "god". When thinking in terms of Japanese gods, or kami - you do find a lot of overlap with youkai. At its root, kami may simply mean "spirit", or an aspect of spirituality, as it's written with the kanji (to see the kanji press continue at this link). Its wide variety of usage means the word kami can also be compared to the Sanskrit Deva or the Hebrew Elohim, which also refer to God, gods, angels and spirits.

So, the question is, what separates Kami from youkai?

First, let's take a look at some notable kami:

    * Amaterasu Omikami, the sun goddess
    * Hachiman, the god of war
    * Sarutahiko Okami, kami of earth
    * Tsukuyomi, the moon god
    * Susanoo-no-mikoto, the sea and storms god
    * Inari Okami, god of foxes
    * Kotoamatsukami, the primary kami trinity
    * Izanagi-no-Mikoto, the first man
    * Izanami-no-Mikoto, the first woman
    * Omoikane, the deity of wisdom

Now, let's take a look at some notable youkai. There are the shape shifting animals like..

    * Mujina (badgers)
    * Bakeneko (cats)
    * Tsuchigumo and jorougumo (spiders)

There are the oni (commonly translated as demons, devils, ogres or trolls). There are the tsukumogami (an entire class of youkai and obake, comprising ordinary household items that have come to life on the one-hundredth anniversary of their birthday. Such as Bakezouri (straw sandals), Karakasa (old umbrellas), Kameosa (old sake jars), and Morinji-no-kama (tea kettles). And last but not least, there are the formerly human youkai, transformed into something horrific and grotesque usually by some sort of extreme emotional state.

When taking into consideration Japanese culture as well as this list, here is the distinction I've personally come to make between the two groups.

Kami are supernatural beings worshiped as the divine forces of nature.
Youkai however, are aspects of those naturalistic forces. They are to be revered, but not necessarily worshiped.

Who makes the distinction between the two? Individuals. Even amongst members of the Shinto religion, it's one's personal beliefs that dictate what is a kami and what is just a youkai.

And, that's it.
I saw google searching "kami v youkai" brought up these posts on the first page and thought I should add a bit more to it. I hope my addition was moderately informative.

[Kira]

 
Something just jumps in my eye here:
Your examples of Kami are all individuals. Singular persons with a name of their own.
Your examples of Youkai on the other hand are entire groups.
 
That's the fact, now lets specualate on it.
 
Maybe it means that Youkai are like species in a supernatural sense, while Kami are like supernatural Stars or Heroes. That would mean that there could be Kami among the Youkai too. Can anyone confirm or contradict this hypothesis?

[Seeker]

So then the inference is that some kami ascended from youkai? That seems like an odd thing to have in a society that, to my knowledge, was built on a strict class system- poor to rich, young to old, weak to strong. Kohai and senpai, isn't it? And the government had strong influence on the religion, you'd think they would downplay any allegory involving the weak becoming powerful. That kind of thought breeds avarice- and revolution.

Although Zalim also has the valid point that shinto belief and practice varies quite a bit from place to place and person to person.

[Kira]

 
But think about it:
Nothing is really eternal, is it? So even gods must have ascended at one point in time. Take enough time and this becomes forgotten, and only crazy folk like us might even think about the idea in the first place.

[Zalim]

Well if you're wondering how the Japanese believed their gods came to be...

Amaterasu:
was born from the left eye of Izanagi as he purified himself in a river and went on to become the ruler of the Higher Celestial Plain. She is also said to be directly linked in lineage to the Imperial Household of Japan and the Emperor, who are considered descendants of the kami themselves.

Hachiman:
the Emperor Ojin, son of Empress Consort Jingu, from the 3rd - 4th century AD.

Tsukuyomi-no-Mikoto:
was born when he washed out of Izanagi's right eye. However, in an alternate story, Tsukuyomi-no-Mikoto was born from a mirror made of white copper in Izanagi-no-Mikoto's right hand.

Susanoo:
born from the washing of Izanagi's nose

Inari: (not really an origin story, but I had to include inari)
in early spring the mountain deity descends the mountain riding a horse, led by a fox to the rice paddies. Inari then becomes the rice paddy deity, returning to the home in the mountain in autumn and becoming a mountain deity once again.

Kotoamatsukami:
is the collective name for the first powers which came into existence at the time of the creation of the universe. They were born in Takamagahara, the world of Heaven at the time of the creation, as Amenominakanushi (Central master), Takamimusubi (High creation), Kamimusubi (Divine creation), and a bit later Umashiashikabihikoji (Energy) and Amenotokotachi (Heaven).

These forces then became gods and goddesses, the tenzai shoshin (heavenly kami) - Ame no minakanushi no kami; Takami-musubi no ôkami; Kamimusubi no ôkami; Umashiashikabihikoji no kami; Ame no Tokotachi no kami; Kuni no Tokotachi no kami; Toyokumono no kami; Uhijini no mikoto; Suhijini no kami; Tsunokuhi no kami; Ikukuhi no kami; Ôtonoji no kami; Ôtonobe no kami; Omodaru no kami; Kashikone no kami; Izanagi no kami; Izanami no kami; and Amaterasu ômikami.

So, I guess you can't say the god's broke though any class barriers ^_^''

I think the discrepancy between individuals and types has more to do with why we personify things. The gods are more important, and therefor more personified.

[Kyuuji]

And Who is Izanagi ?



When i'll have time i'll go search for some books about Shinto and every things around it that will be when i'll be at mom's house in a quiet and lovely place like in the woods

[Kira]

 
Izanagi and Izanami are...

    * Izanagi-no-Mikoto, the first man
    * Izanami-no-Mikoto, the first woman

They were mates, until Izanami died. Izanagi went to the underworld to bring her back, but something went wrong.
Izanagi fled the underworld and closed off the entrance with a big boulder.
Izanami cursed: "If you leave me here, then I'll kill 100 people each day"
But Izanagi responded: "Then I shall have 200 people born every day."

 
As for the origins:
I think I shall make a new thread about this.

[KaiOT]

Come on guys, would it kill anyone to make short posts once in a while? I'm really lazy... and you guys made me read and when I'm in one of my all too frequent sleep deprived states like today it's such a chore...
(Just kidding of course )

I'm actually quite proud of myself, most of what I read I already knew; other parts seemed pretty familiar and what I didn't know I have now learned. Yipee!

Can't say I have anything productive actually to add to this topic... it's not really my field of expertise... likelihood is a lot of people here will know a lot more than me when it comes to subjects like this one. Normally I'm utterly clueless.
Now after having driveled on for a short while I have done what I came here to do: Make you all read my crazy ramblings as revenge for making me read yours 

KaiOT out.

[Zalim]

short post

*drops dead*

[KaiOT]

short post

*drops dead*

Thank you. 

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