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[Zephiris]

Ziphiris, I am officially convinced you don't know what you are talking about.  I could take the time and explain to you how one's attitude over just a single lifetime can change how their spirit is perceived by another, but I would much rather get down to the things that are obvious: 
You are suggesting that wings affect "casting"... No, just flat out BS.  There is no such thing as casting: any superphysical thing that you do is done much like moving your body: requires no preparation, just energy.

You say that those with wings move more delicately when "flying"... When you are without body flight physics do NOT affect you.  Why?  Because you have no physical form for them to affect. 

You say that with wings you can't sleep on your back... I'm going to avoid the debate on whether spirits need sleep and go straight to the point of saying that to believe this is to believe that the physical world affects spirits.  If it did, all of us would have a huge problem with gravity in this flight scenario.  You make me want to say, "I'm sorry I can't open this door there's a ghost in the way." 

And now for the last thing you said which proved for me you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about: you believe that wings can help in "physical expression" 
There is no such vegetable as "PHYSICAL expression" when you have no PHYSICAL body.  Without a body we are for lack of a better word "physically blind".  Yes we "see" energy, yes we "see" other spirits, but communication is done by transferring emotion directly.  "physical expression" is a symbol we have created to convey our own emotions which is gathered from experience, therefore; you are suggesting we use a form of communication that requires not only a mouth to send, ears to receive, but also requires eyes to see a spirit move so that we may guess at what they are trying to convey which only gets funnier when you think about the countless expressions that can be misunderstood from just the humans of this planet alone.
Yes! you are right, Earth is not the center of the universe, nor is the anthropomorphic form, nor a single syntax of speech.  In fact, the only common point that could be found IS emotion and thought.

Reading your beliefs about the nature of the nonphysical is like reading a fantasy novel, you might have a reasoning worked out, but it's a very weak one that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.  Rather than slapping down something to drown out someone's statements/observations/beliefs, take some time to think about if your own are realistic.

Generally, your statements have been laughable, especially since you're a furry. I'm sure you know all about fantasy novels. You even intentionally spell my name wrong. *thumbs up*

It's an extreme misconception to say there's "no body" on the astral. There is. It's a very definite, predictable thing. Emotions, or changing your mind, wouldn't somehow significantly alter it. Your emotions, mental status, -might- affect how others treat you, if they know. If you have no astral body, you aren't alive. A human might make that mistake easily, though.

A lot of energy work needs preparation. The more delicate it is, generally the more preparation needed not to cause problems. For things that aren't complex at all (generally according to your body, not your thoughts), no preparation.

Some people, some things, need to sleep. Others don't. It depends. It's slightly uncomfortable to have a wing shoved through something and break it. What the fuck does anything have to do with "ghosts in doorways", or whatever shit you're smoking?

Communication is often done directly mental among different unfamiliar species, but it doesn't somehow make it some absolute rule. There are many, many languages, some of which are spoken exactly the same as they were 100,000 years ago. Misunderstandings are common.

Why wouldn't someone have a mouth, or ears, or eyes, or anything else that's defined by their makeup? Unless of course they lost it...and nobody bothered to reattach, or recraft it.

Just because most things vary in configuration, it doesn't mean that there are substantially more problems with anything between them, communication or otherwise. Perhaps this is the root of your misunderstanding and attempt to explain everything? Nothing obeys a singular rule of how to exist or communicate, let alone how to look or behave. Maybe you lay down a thick blanket of BS to drown out anyone else, but just because you do it, doesn't mean anyone else does.

And...let's see. No, nothing I've written reads like a fantasy. I think there's a logical explanation for things. I think logical explanations for astral don't necessarily have nothing to do with Earth. You still give the impression that you mostly think "spirits come from Earth, that's how it works". I don't have to project. I don't have to put blinders on. An astral being...is an astral being. Things don't somehow mystically 'stop' for a -second- body being an incarnate one.  Needs still continue, the rest of the universe does not stop because you need to sleep, or YOU have school on Monday. It has nothing to do with belief, everything to do with what can be reached out for and touched, examined, inspected, verified. This is extremely easy to do, so why can't you?

Let me guess, your 'superphysical form', if you're even aware of it, is generic, formless, grey? I've got some news for you then.

[Seeker]

"I'm sorry I can't open this door there's a ghost in the way." 

That's something monty python would do, I laughed so hard.

There is no such vegetable as "PHYSICAL expression" when you have no PHYSICAL body.  Without a body we are for lack of a better word "physically blind". Yes we "see" energy, yes we "see" other spirits, but communication is done by transferring emotion directly.  "physical expression" is a symbol we have created to convey our own emotions which is gathered from experience, therefore; you are suggesting we use a form of communication that requires not only a mouth to send, ears to receive, but also requires eyes to see a spirit move so that we may guess at what they are trying to convey which only gets funnier when you think about the countless expressions that can be misunderstood from just the humans of this planet alone.

I understand what you mean by this, but I highly doubt and deeply fear the existence of any such brute emotional connection that would render obsolete the simple and beautiful art of dancing. That would be pretty lame.

[PeachClover]

I understand what you mean by this, but I highly doubt and deeply fear the existence of any such brute emotional connection that would render obsolete the simple and beautiful art of dancing. That would be pretty lame.

It's not a brute emotional connection, it's very gentle which is why most adults have trouble picking up on it: it's drowned out by really loud and constant thought ^^;;
You can dance, and you can sing too.  There is a leyline on Monte Sano, once while up there I silenced my mind and I felt as if the very trees were doing both.  heh, I seem to recall before I took this life, I used to dance every time something made me happy. 

[Seeker]

Then why the bit about physical expression not existing on the astral?

[Zephiris]

I understand what you mean by this, but I highly doubt and deeply fear the existence of any such brute emotional connection that would render obsolete the simple and beautiful art of dancing. That would be pretty lame.

It's not a brute emotional connection, it's very gentle which is why most adults have trouble picking up on it: it's drowned out by really loud and constant thought ^^;;
You can dance, and you can sing too.  There is a leyline on Monte Sano, once while up there I silenced my mind and I felt as if the very trees were doing both.  heh, I seem to recall before I took this life, I used to dance every time something made me happy. 

Good for you, don't answer. But, mm. See, I thought we were talking about "superphysical things", not "what adult humans can't usually hear".
Direct communication has nothing to do with things here, or age. If such communication is drowned out by thought...don't verbalize inside of your own mind so much? Humans seem to need or want to verbalize everything inside of their own head, which seems strange. You don't have to verbalize things to form coherent or complex thoughts.

"I'm sorry I can't open this door there's a ghost in the way." 

That's something monty python would do, I laughed so hard.


I understand what you mean by this, but I highly doubt and deeply fear the existence of any such brute emotional connection that would render obsolete the simple and beautiful art of dancing. That would be pretty lame.

Peachy Keen apparently thinks there are no bodies, no surfaces, "everything is generic", hence no dancing. Dancing is alive and well, though. If still slightly under appreciated as something enjoyable by some people.

[Kitsunami]

With zephiris on this matter.

[PeachClover]

Then why the bit about physical expression not existing on the astral?

Without body we are energy, your emotions are perceived through empathy.  As one person put it, you would see another much as a blurry moving manikin... Granted I seem to recall that when communicating with someone it's like you don't really see them, but appear into each others' consciousness, this happens in life too if you focus on it, but without body it is much much faster and with a deeper understanding.

[GoldKitsu]

Sorry about the quotes not including link to the exact post it is referenced from but I'm using bits from posts and responses, their all from this thread though

Not even a fox therian would be related to kitsune in any meaningful way. Even the level of consciousness feels radically different. Virtually anything considered otherkin would have next to nothing (or completely nothing) to do with Earth. Therians are either humans that have a general 'affinity' towards a particular animal, or direct animal spirits from a particular terrestrial species that happen to be in a human body now, depending on definition (most online lean towards the former).

To me that really depends on experience and what exact variety you have found on the astral.

Astral form is not casually mutable.

I really think that part is up to debate depending on definition.

If you explain form and substance by 'human thoughts and desires', how would you even then begin to explain things that are astral-native? Earth is not the center of the universe. Far, far from it.

Well talking to you the societies you find seem to be very Earth like?

You are suggesting that wings affect "casting"... No, just flat out BS.  There is no such thing as casting: any superphysical thing that you do is done much like moving your body: requires no preparation, just energy.

That is really a horrible comparison and not definitively true.  Try doing the splits, there are people who can do it after stretching and warming up, but if they just did it they would tear ligaments.

In fact, the only common point that could be found IS emotion and thought.

I've realized personally that emotions and thoughts can be so alien to us as to be unrecognizable.

Communication is often done directly mental among different unfamiliar species, but it doesn't somehow make it some absolute rule

That doesn't translate well very often I'd think.

I personally hold that form is an illusion both here and in the physical.  A bit of the buddhist philosophy, though definitely don't hold to the end goal.

[PeachClover]

You are suggesting that wings affect "casting"... No, just flat out BS.  There is no such thing as casting: any superphysical thing that you do is done much like moving your body: requires no preparation, just energy.

That is really a horrible comparison and not definitively true.  Try doing the splits, there are people who can do it after stretching and warming up, but if they just did it they would tear ligaments.

Every analogy has a flaw; the aspect that you mention is skill and availability.  Skill is the ability to do the task; one's comprehension of what one is doing and one's success rate.  Like any skill, practice in the task shall improve comprehension and success rate.  When I say availability I really mean energy: Some tasks take so little energy you don't notice it, and there are tasks that take a great deal of energy where one can feel the drain immediately while preforming the task.

To bring this back to the analogy: walking requires nothing special, doing the splits takes practice, but even in the act of doing the splits one does not say mystic words ("casting") and suddenly do splits without the same strain of a person who does not say those words.  My original point was that the root of causing superphysical things to happen is within one's self and is comparable to physical labor: physical labor drains the body, superphysical labor drains the mind, sometimes a task is too great for the body, sometimes a task is too great for the mind. 

I should have taken more time to say this, but what I was trying to point out with Zephiris was: even if you call superphysical labor casting, having wings on your spirit doesn't have any logical affect on the success rate of a superphysical task.  One could believe that a spirit can only develop wings on their form after reaching a certain level of power, however; I personally believe the shape of one's spirit is much like the clothes we wear in that it doesn't take much to change them.

[Zephiris]

<snip>

To bring this back to the analogy: walking requires nothing special, doing the splits takes practice, but even in the act of doing the splits one does not say mystic words ("casting") and suddenly do splits without the same strain of a person who does not say those words.  My original point was that the root of causing superphysical things to happen is within one's self and is comparable to physical labor: physical labor drains the body, superphysical labor drains the mind, sometimes a task is too great for the body, sometimes a task is too great for the mind. 

I should have taken more time to say this, but what I was trying to point out with Zephiris was: even if you call superphysical labor casting, having wings on your spirit doesn't have any logical affect on the success rate of a superphysical task.  One could believe that a spirit can only develop wings on their form after reaching a certain level of power, however; I personally believe the shape of one's spirit is much like the clothes we wear in that it doesn't take much to change them.

Whether you're running a marathon on Earth or trying to perfect defensive astral techniques, it requires a certain level of maintained focus unless it's simply easy for you. The implications of exhaustion or draining, however you might define them, are largely regulated through that. Some people can go hard all day without it being a particular feat. On the physical, you have muscles that get better over time, but your focus to do a particular thing also gets better over time if you're pushing yourself. It's not substantially different with astral. Endurance.

I never once said having wings makes things more successful. If you measure something by only the metric of success or failure, it's a bit shallow. I said they can be used as an aid one way or another, a tool, in effect.  It's less about the chance of something succeeding, more to do with the degree of success or failure of a particular action. A negligible failure isn't necessarily as bad as a catastrophic one. Although I was witness to more than one angel being far more proactive in using them while trying to kill someone, but use or non-use I suppose is more of a notion of style and knowledge of how to use your entire body to be the most productive with what you need to do. That might imply use of something, or exclusion, to get the best results. Socrates said "Know Thyself", and I suppose that applies.
But, anyway. It doesn't matter much to you if you don't have them to deal with. This mostly only applies to the genuine article. Real ones are not decoration. It's not a merit-based thing, either. It's not based on reaching "a certain level of power", which sounds like something out of anime, but based on affixed nature. Like most anything else, you start existence like that, or you don't. A shifter could mimic wings, but most often, it's not the same thing. Most shifters don't seem to be able to casually emulate the underlying nature or detailed function of something, for whatever reason.

[KD]

::2 cents from a newb who hasn't finished their introduction post yet::

As I understand it, there is no authoritative 'one-right-answer' definition for all three terms, therian, otherkin, and kitsune. And I don't think there needs to be. General definitions keep things open, while I think hard-core limitations to definitions just cause a lot of unnecessary arguing.

 So the way I see it, kitsune is originally a Japanese/Ainu term for "fox". I use it because it has a different poetic feel than the English, Chinese, or Spanish words for that same general category of related species. Aside from that, Japan has a great wealth of fox related folklore and pop-culture references to call upon, compared to many other nations of the world. So when I say "kitsune" it conjures up some of those images in a person's head, rather than if I said "kumiho" --where Korean folklore assumes a much more malignant nature to these associated creatures.

When talking about therian/otherkin I think a disclaimer is in order. While folklore and mythology can be written off as "fiction" and so is seen in a harmless light, these other terms hold a modern and controversial significance. Therianism and otherkin nature generally assumes the existence of a "soul" --which can be hard to define in its self --especially for those that believe in it --let alone to prove its existence. Since they both rely so heavily on the definition of a "soul", both terms start off on shaky ground to begin with. So the most accurate explanation must be considerably vague, leaving lots of room to suit the many waring paradigms.

That said, "therian" is a reference to some kind of animal nature/association, and "otherkin" focuses in a similar way on creatures of a fantastic nature, which may or may not include ordinary animals which perform fantastic feats.

I think "kitsune" could easily be argued to be a therian and/or otherkin, especially depending on how one defines "kitsune". I use the vague sense of the term. So "therian" suits my purposes, but I also accept that some might use "otherkin" in its place, given the often fantastic attributes and feats sometimes attached to foxes in folklore and mythology.

Unless one intends to work under one strict definition with people of the same mind and opinions exclusively, I think that this is as far as a public defining can go. I imagine that like-minded discussions of strict definitions would quickly turn into "circle-jerks", while those between people of different minds would quickly degenerate into angry arguments and bitter stalemates. Neither situation am I looking for precisely.

Thanks for your time. This is my first post. ^^

[Kirara Munashi'i]

Therianism

This is just a personal pet peeve, but the correct term is "Therianthropy," not "Therianism." Just wanted to clear that up. No offense or anything negative meant.

That said, "therian" is a reference to some kind of animal nature/association, and "otherkin" focuses in a similar way on creatures of a fantastic nature, which may or may not include ordinary animals which perform fantastic feats.

This is actually hitting it right on the nail to what kitsune falls under.

I think "kitsune" could easily be argued to be a therian and/or otherkin, especially depending on how one defines "kitsune". I use the vague sense of the term. So "therian" suits my purposes, but I also accept that some might use "otherkin" in its place, given the often fantastic attributes and feats sometimes attached to foxes in folklore and mythology.

I can completely agree with this as well. And I find it amusing that fox spirits live on the borders of sociology, spirituality, and even definitions such as otherkin and therianthropy.

[Okori Tenko]

*smacks his chest and dares to hold his breath in shock.*

 Well... certainly a lot said here.

 Foremost, if you're going to go down the road of therianthropy, you might as well elarn the truth about therianthropy.

 Foremost is the term. Therianthrope has been a word that's been around at least four generations, and so few have really understood it's intricacies.

 Etymology is important here, because some of it is 'hidden'.

 Most people think of Therianthrope as 'Therius and Anthropos', which means 'Spirit Man' in Latin. Ulitmately? Wrong answer. the correct terms broken down is Therius Animus Anthropos, as when all therianthropes started to explore Therianthropy, we needed a term to describe us. That was it, and why Therianthrope is formed the way it is. Anyone not truly trained by someone who has been there from the beginning won't know this.

 Second, the Astral realms shows itself to each of us differently because of the different levels and types of abilities we all have. No one person has it communally correct. There's no one Unitarian truth to the Astral. Because none of us, even identical twins, have the exact same abilities, we'll never be able to know what the Astral is like fully, until we pass completely over to the other side. Because of the minute variations we all have, and because of the fact we're not dead, all we can do is speculate.

 So... What we each see on the Astral side is only what our physical bodies can handle being 'unattached' to, and what our physical adaptations allow our spirits to see. Ultimately. No one's right, and no one's wrong.

 As to the animal shapes: It's true that many see the 'earthly' significance of the Pheonotype (the Animal type of a Therianthrope) can be from general nature, and generally is.

 Loreianthropes (Therianthropes that have a mythical source from lore, and is also a great jab in the ribs to the 'Lycanthrope' term... >^.^< ) have a different, but unequivocally equal stance of connection to the earth. Though not a natural source as say the Wolf Therianthropes, Loreianthropes still have a connection to the earth through mythology, lore, theory and physics that what nature created dreamed up, if you want to go that route. We're the monsters you more physical Therianthropes dreamed up and now can't get rid of because we took on a life of our own, if you want to take it a bit rudely.

 Bottom line: We exist as much as you do now. So, quite frankly: Get used to it. Worse things happen.

 And at that, don't most Therianthropes have a live/let live policy? Or did that contract expire when the monsters from legend started stepping out of books?

 Now, can we PLEASE stop arguing?

[Kira]

 
If you want them to stop arguing, why dig out the topic in the first place?

[Okori Tenko]

 Sometimes it's better to have good answers come late, than not at all.

 At least, that's my viewpoint.

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