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[Kirara Munashi'i]

That may be, but mythology is much more reliable than something John Doe there said out of the blue. At least you can verify a myth by researching it and find many who agree with it. Granted same thing occurs here on this board, not many people here are exactly credible/qualified/reliable/etc enough to take at their word.

So, in the end, you have: either go with a story that is 1,000 years old which may or not may just be total and utter crap or go with some teenage boy who lives in his mother's basement who says he saw all this in a meditation or the "astral plane."[/exaggeration] Personally, I would rather go with the scholar side and stay with researchable mythological records.

Historical records? That was my mistake. Historical records = mythology. I don't know why I separated them, but from my understanding Shintoism is the only thing Japan has as reliable records from Ancient Japan.

[Edit] Oh and by the way, whenever I say "mythology" I mean to refer to Buddhist and Shinto mythology.

[Zephiris]

Mythology and historic records says so. Anything more than 9 is not only absurd but just screaming fluffy roleplayer.

Do you really believe worlds in other dimensions/realms have the same history as us? Who knows how many different creatures there are out there.

Okay, Goddamnit, I'm putting my foot down.  You are more than welcome to post here as a dragonkin and hell, even to some extent read and speculate posts directed SPECIFICALLY towards kitsune, but you are NOT a kitsune, nor do you have ANY knowledge of how we work from your posts.  I suggest you quietly observe and learn before posting any more arguments, please, or I will have to politely request that you leave.

So, in the end, you have: either go with a story that is 1,000 years old which may or not may just be total and utter crap or go with some teenage boy who lives in his mother's basement who says he saw all this in a meditation or the "astral plane."[/exaggeration] Personally, I would rather go with the scholar side and stay with researchable mythological records.

You're not Teh Bomb unless you have Over 9000.</tease>

You know, though. Can anyone cite a reference where X number of tails (or limitations thereof) are actually cited? I always propped up my head and wondered if the 'tail count, rar' had something in actuality to do with chinese or japanese numerology, especially since it seems a meta-device, not something actually mentioned in tales of old, and the common numbers specifically mentioned in all of the meta-information has specific meanings in numerology which are arguably relevant (as much as numerology is -ever- relevant). At least, all of the old mythology I remember, never mentions such specifically. Mostly "the silly kitsune tricks the even sillier human/god out of something of value", though, I suppose. Never a mention of status or power. .-.

[Shiori]

well there is ALOT of mention of only nine tails in Chinese and korean fox lore. And tamamo No Mae was seen as a Nine tail in all 3 legands of China Japan and I think Korea or India I forgot.  There is NO mention in any lore of any more then nine tails.  Exept for the Lady and there is very little info on that one.

[Zephiris]

I haven't seen/read any mention of that anywhere. One japanese exhibit (http://edb.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/exhibit-e/otogi/tamamo/tamamo.html) says two tail. Other sources (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamamo-no-Mae, http://kitsune.org/stories/The%20Death%20Stone.htm ) do not specify. In the past, and apparently presently, I could not find anything to substantiate the notion of Tamamo no Mae having nine tails, no matter how often it's repeated.
And I still can't find any non-modern stories, tales, myths, legends, which refer to any kitsune with any number of tails more than one, including (but not strictly limited to) every single live link including indirect from http://academia.issendai.com/japanese-fox-stories.shtml. The website thereof also has a section on things that appear to be completely unfounded based on all of the sources found, with extensive citing of sources. Although I'm sure most of us don't have access to the vast majority of books on the citation list(s). In fact, the few stories that even mention tail, and note the word in plural, explicitly refer to multiple foxes with presumably one tail each.
Somewhere, presumably, there are stories that mention growing tails under certain conditions; that one site (http://academia.issendai.com/fox-misconceptions.shtml) reassures lore never says is based on deed or action or experience, only age, and only in certain traditions, but I haven't yet found one specifically going over that part, either.

Korea specifically has the 'kumiho', which refers to foxes that gain nine tails once they are 1000 years old. There is no alternate term. *cough* More recent variations on those tales involve malevolence, including but not limited to, consuming the livers of humans to survive. Always defined as a lesser animal than man.

The exclusive purveyor of "the lady"/ten-tailed kitsune seem to all be roleplaying, derived from "Foxtrot" and his brand of tasteless humor, as is a lot of the 'stuff' out there.

[Kira]

 
Well, I beleive that there are quite a number of sources referng to ninetails, but I cannot exactly recall anything refering to any number between that and one.
 
Maybe it hat been a missunderstanding or mistranslation with the word "ninetail" having a different meaning alltogether, like "dragon" actually means "powerful man".

[Akana Uruha Seiru]

I am just a simple three tail so far.  I am happy with it.  To me, I wouldn't wish to go past that nine tail cap, lest I be seen as a fool and quickly killed by others.  Pissing off the Gods isn't my cup of tea, you know?

Though I do want to continue my knowledge and search well past my death.  Once I become a spirit and free of this body, I want to find those I love and those other foxes who want to come with me and see the universe as it is.

And thanks to an earlier post, I now have Who Want's to Live Forever? on repeat.   

[Shailla]

Congratulations!
Most of you went totally off topic.

You know, the thread is about "Revealing Hidden Tails" not about tail count and drama..

[Seeker]

If a thread's topic changes after two posts, can you say that it's off topic to be talking about the same thing 4 pages later?

Anyway, I think it's productive to talk about the theoretical limit of tails and whether it's absolute or symbolic, and if the latter, one could gain more and would have cause to hide them. That's not that far from the original topic.

Also, hello Shailla. Always good to see more faces, especially ones who never posted very much.

[Okori Tenko]

*sits back after listening to all of the rabbling. He then shook his head softly.*

 Such a heated debate. Perhaps I should divulge what I do know.

 To begin, I would like to begin on-topic and say that to find the number of tails one has, one has to 'illuminate the fox within'. That takes time and practice, as to use all as 'Hosts', the kitsune fears scaring you off, even if you know about the fox within. Ktisune are both beautiful and terrible at the same time. To imagine this seems impossible, but it's very true. Also, it's a defense mechanism. Illusions are always a part of a fox's repitaur of defenses. One may never know the true age of the fox, if they don't want you to know. Maybe you haven't gained it's true trust, yet. Work towards that.

 And now, on to the debate...

 I'm going to cool this whole entire debate once and for all.

 Foremost is the issue of 'exactly nine tails'. The 'nine count' is tenant of Buddhism, and accounts for the eight paths, and the ninth realization. The Tenth makes the kitsune more diety-like than mortal, thus ending their karmic cycle. More or less, reaching 'Nirvana', in Chinese Buddhist theology. It is 'known' that only a HUMAN can gain Nirvana, which is why a Chinese kitsune with ten tails is insulting: TO BUDDHISTS. If a kitsune from China gains more than ten tails, and is still manifested physically, then they become detrimental to the world, as it is completely contradictory to Chinese Dogma, and 'offensive to the gods'.

 This is also -PARTIALLY- true of Japanese kitsune, though, because there -are- more elemental paths, a Japanese kitsune can gain more tails than NINE.

 The long term view of Inari as the Goddess of Kitsune, connotated her as 'many tailed', though such has never been spoken of of exactly how many, though in Shinto, 1,000 and 10,000 and even 5,000 are sacred numbers, connotating half millenia, millenia and Eon ages. THAT'S ALL. In all truth, when the Goddess Inari 'appears' to her children, it is known widely that she travels with a 'Curtail', just as before the Jade Empress does. However, I will exude my OWN will, in saying that the Great Mother can appear however she damned well pleases, and if that pisses anyone off, then you should consider switching factions. Inari is SHINTO. NOT BUDDHIST. Buddhism did a VERY terrible job in trying to 'consume' Shinto Lore, and that's what they -TRIED to do.- (I need MUCH anger management over that...)

 Foremost, I -AM- Shinto, and I -AM- a kitsune, so I have every right to speak on this, more-so than most others can understand at this point. I'm also a Mythology buff, who has a history of more than 15 years of hard research to back me up.

 True enough that Chinese kitsune cannot have more than 9 tails normally, because then they 'appear' as 'avatars', and are detrimental to the world through 'contradiction'. This is because they gain 'divine creative powers not meant to exist on this world in such a creature at this time.'

 Because of the influx of Chinese Buddhism into Japan and into an unprepared and peaceful Shinto nation during the 600-800 time period, many things about kitsune and their world had changed, mainly for the worse. Our ages spanned centuries, as any other kitsune, but we then learned that being over 1000 years old was detrimental, as we became 'vampiric' with energy drains from the elemental spheres of ephemera. This was not common, as most died at 900-1000 anyways, but a few would survive, here and there. There was an honorable way to die, which is where the 'human version' of Seppaku ACTUALLY comes from, boiled down to a Samurai Code of Honor's justice system. This included the aged fox taking his own life by cutting open his own 'Hoshi no Tama', a kind of Seppaku. This kept the world from being too drained from excess tailed numbers.

 Note: I SAID EXCESS.

- There -ARE- those who have more, and are cursed for that -IN SHINTO MYTHOLOGY.- Hope, the Jade Empress is one of them. Her curtail is a number of others with more than ten tails each. In all actuality, her curtail all have ten to twelve, each, her being the only one with thirteen, representative of all thirteen elements -in Japanese Shinto Lore.-

* And yes... The Jade Empress's name BEFORE her name was Hope, -was- Koki Tenno, who was thought to be the physical 'Matron', mother of all -MODERN- kitsune, and Chinese in origin.

- There have been other written accounts of angelic 'Messangers' and 'Guides' of Inari, who are sent to come here for -limited- amounts of time, all with 11 or more tails.

- Accounts of those with 10 tails are Hunted Nogitsune, in Japanese Mythology.

- Tales of the Jade Empress traveling with her Curtail account for the 'Thousand Tailed Mother'.

 - Visions of Inari Herself in her 'female fox' aspect account for her baring a total of -13- tails, which account for -ALL 13 ELEMENTS in Japan.-

 -This is STRICTLY Shinto Lore, and can be verified by picking up ANY real Shinto Doctrine, such as their main religious books.The name of these books of lore are known in SHINTO as the 'Kojiki' (30-50 books, depending on variation), and is pretty much the bible of Shinto. THIS is where I get a majority of the main sources of my information from. Care to denounce MY bible? I also cite from the Kujiki (20-40, books, thought to be an unverified companion to the Kojiki), and the 'Yugen no Kitsuki', an invaluable reference that has too many cites to reference all at once.- The last is an ultra rare book that most scholars of Japanese Lore and Mythology don't want to try to translate, since it's severely coded, thought to be an early form of coded script by 'Hunters'. Believe me, I seriously understand why it's a pain in the arse to do it. The tiny variations can't even be tracked for translations even with a computer. How they made that frickin coded text is beyond me, and I barely understand the first sixteen chapters of the first book. Of them, there are thirteen books mentioned. I have one... in storage... in Texas... and I'm in PA.-

 Other than that, most of the mainly cited lore throughout this site would be where I get more of the lore from.

 If you SERIOUSLY think that life doesn't branch off and evolve, then you seriously need to look once more at the many variety of races humans have. NOT to mention the number of belief systems they all have, and it is by THAT example, that I base my proof of kitsune variety, lore not withstanding. Try to deny THIS aspect, and you ruin all possibility for advancements. It's at that point that I know you're not living, you're dying, and just don't realize it.

 Now, can we PLEASE get back on serious topic?...

 "Kitsune are creatures of belief. Limit that belief, and there's nowhere but down. Celestial rules are there to be followed without trying; like what goes up must come down. Kitsune don't break the Celestial rules, but we do make nifty pretzels out of them."

 ~Humorous Quote from a young kitsune teaching an even younger kitsune.~

[Kira]

 
There, there.
No need to get so irritated.
 
That was an insightful post indeed, I suppose with that much data on Shintoism you're easily the local expert.
 
Still, I wonder what exactly "tails" are.
I mean, more than one physical tail would already ruin the point, much less seven or none or more.
That's why I say I'm fine with one.

[Okori Tenko]

 Being fine with one tail 'shown' is indeed fine, but the other tails will always be there, maybe hidden by illusions. the tails are exactly that. Tails. They are a physical manifestation that enhances what kitsune become when they take a physical shape. Ignoring the illusions, the tails hold the ephemeral energy collected by a kitsune. The more tails? the more energy a kitusne can use. Keep in mind that as a kitsune gets older, they have to use more energy to stay physically manifested. Hence, the need for more tails. That would be the basic reason why every kitsune gains more tails. They need to store more energy.

 It also just so happens that the number of tails can be seen as a symbol of both age, and wisdom. Not to mention sheer power. It may be true that a kitsune, when young, will run from demons. That's because they simply are just too weak to take on an Oni. The older ones, however, might be nervous, but they'll still stand toe to toe with an Oni. Being able to potentially do something like that commands raw respect, and often is. However, the oldest kitsune earn it through sharing lived wisdom.

 Otherwise?... They look really pretty when brushed and preened. >^.^<

[Tsunami]

Note: I SAID EXCESS.

- There -ARE- those who have more, and are cursed for that -IN SHINTO MYTHOLOGY.- Hope, the Jade Empress is one of them. Her curtail is a number of others with more than ten tails each. In all actuality, her curtail all have ten to twelve, each, her being the only one with thirteen, representative of all thirteen elements -in Japanese Shinto Lore.-

* And yes... The Jade Empress's name BEFORE her name was Hope, -was- Koki Tenno, who was thought to be the physical 'Matron', mother of all -MODERN- kitsune, and Chinese in origin.

- There have been other written accounts of angelic 'Messangers' and 'Guides' of Inari, who are sent to come here for -limited- amounts of time, all with 11 or more tails.

- Accounts of those with 10 tails are Hunted Nogitsune, in Japanese Mythology.

- Tales of the Jade Empress traveling with her Curtail account for the 'Thousand Tailed Mother'.

 - Visions of Inari Herself in her 'female fox' aspect account for her baring a total of -13- tails, which account for -ALL 13 ELEMENTS in Japan.-

Then there are likely 13 tailed nogitsune running around, though no one could ever know them.

[Fujo Jigen]

 Being fine with one tail 'shown' is indeed fine, but the other tails will always be there, maybe hidden by illusions. the tails are exactly that. Tails. They are a physical manifestation that enhances what kitsune become when they take a physical shape. Ignoring the illusions, the tails hold the ephemeral energy collected by a kitsune. The more tails? the more energy a kitusne can use. Keep in mind that as a kitsune gets older, they have to use more energy to stay physically manifested. Hence, the need for more tails. That would be the basic reason why every kitsune gains more tails. They need to store more energy.

 It also just so happens that the number of tails can be seen as a symbol of both age, and wisdom. Not to mention sheer power. It may be true that a kitsune, when young, will run from demons. That's because they simply are just too weak to take on an Oni. The older ones, however, might be nervous, but they'll still stand toe to toe with an Oni. Being able to potentially do something like that commands raw respect, and often is. However, the oldest kitsune earn it through sharing lived wisdom.

 Otherwise?... They look really pretty when brushed and preened. >^.^<

If we go by what you just said those who believe 9 is the 'limit' might actually have more tails then they realize, I believe alot of us need to go back, clear our mind, be completely accepting of any verdict, and count again 

Not only that but the need more energy thing does make a bit more sense to me though, years ago all I needed was music playing thru the night to keep me 'energized' for the next day. Nowadays not only do I have to play my music 24/7, but I've been getting energy from many other sources of entertainment like reading and watching, I've even put two plants in my room just last year and I was completely satisfied, now I have the need for more plants (perfurably a room full of them would be nice).

Not only that but Ive also noticed that everyone here seems to think I'm 'hyper' when most of the time I'm actually not.... Maybe its my energy 'supply' that their sensing?

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