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[Kuro]

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...I...

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No.  Just no.  Cats were exalted, near-worshipped in Egypt.  They were supposedly able to see the afterlife and communicate with beings therein.  Kitsune are metaphysical beings.  We are not exalted, near-worshipped in Japan.  We're merely messengers, and some of us, the only beings on this planet that Inari-sama can order to carry out Her plans, will, and good deeds.  

Secondly, I'm fine with you believing that all gods are a part of your one Goddess.  I personally believe that all Gods from the old religions must exist, if only because the believers of each faith willed it so, and because of the outstanding amount of truth and similarity that coincides bewteen all religions.  However, I'm not okay with you stating that you're "Pagan Kitsune" and then stating you serve Inari-sama.  

To be a Myobu requires that you believe in Shinto, or at least the beings therein.  From your response, I get the feeling that this is something you haven't researched in depth, and therefore that you have little to no understanding of Shinto.  This is a problem.  If you were to be ordered to discuss things with a follower or messenger of Amaterasu-sama, or Susanowo-no-Mikoto-sama, you would be in a rut.  If you were asked to explain a bit of your beliefs, or cite something from your doctrine, you would be in a rut.  

You would have issues that you could not fix, and would ultimately reflect badly on the rest of us.  And at the moment, the last thing we need is to look like a bunch of zany, nutjob furryfolk, when there are so many rumors that this is exactly what we are already.  A turning point is getting close, and whatever it is, we'll be involved.  And I really would like that transition to go as smoothly as possible.

Please understand that this isn't just a statement to you, Shiori, but a statement to a lot of people in these forums who run around with their tails waving behind them like a perverse flag going, "OMG IR KYTZUN, I FULLO INARI".  In order to truly follow and serve Inari-sama, you must be Myobu.  In order to understand much of what we do, you must be Shinto.  In order for that to happen, you must research before speaking.  I myself am still somewhat uncomfortable saying this, because I know only the basic stories of Creation and the lineage of the gods and their characteristics.  But it has to be said, and therefore I'm saying it.

And yes, I realize that this is quite a different tone from my last post, but the previous post was assuming that you at least knew a LITTLE about Shinto and who Inari-sama actually is.  * sighs *   So much work to do with so few people who can help.

[Kira]

Research as much as you will. The second you get it is when you understand that there is no real truth. The stories of Inari all stem from humans, and so does folklore about foxes.
If you ask Inari-worshipers all over Japan you are bound to get different answers almost every time. And while the core will stay the same, Inari is different depending on who worships her. As is her connection to foxes.
Some are loving Inari, but dreading the foxes, and others worship Inari herself as a fox.
And there's more.

[Shiori]

So now I am shot down because of my beleifs? thanks.

[Taoki]

Kuro, I spoke with Shiori on messenger and I'd like to ask you, please, don't get like that against her because of her beliefs any more. She doesn't mean any harm about anything and like each of us she has her own beliefs, which can't be the same for everyone. Tell her what you think but please be nice about it. I think you two would even like to talk to each other more as you seem to be interested in the same things. She's a friend of mine and I know her so I can say she doesn't mean any harm. I ask you at least for me to be nice to her. Please?

[Seeker]

Bast as in the egyptian cat-goddess? When you first mentioned Bast in your intro, i thought it was a typo, lol.

    It's a curious combination of beiliefs, I'll give Kuro that. The aspect of Bast seems quite opposed to the qualities attributed to Kitsune. He's also right in saying that the relationship between Egypt and cats; and Japan and foxes is very different as well. Cats were worshipped, foxes and their mythic counterparts received anything from worship, to distrust and paranoia to outright fear and hatred. This extended to humans considered to associate with them as well.

    Kira's point stands out to me: we have to remember when dealing with any sort of mythological reference that the creatures of myth invariably have an element of mystery about them, if they were well understood they wouldn't be mythical. All sources have to be assumed to be from human experience only, and even assuming the subject is real any analysis or judgement based on myth must be taken with a grain of salt.

Especially with Egyptian Polytheism, whose details were in constant and acute flux due to everything from North-South relations, politics, foreign influence and other entirely temporal forces. For a specific example, wikipedia over here says that following an influx of Nubian culture, Bast was reassigned as a war deity to reconcile her as a parent figure to one of their gods. Shinto was also for a very long time deeply entangled in politics.

So here's a couple questions for you Shiori; In your mind, how would you compare and contrast the two Goddesses? And do you have some connection with Bast's cats, too? How does that relate to your overall perspective, and to foxes in particular?

[Rei Tsukikage]

im starting to think that this topic was kind of asking to invite havoc, and quite possibly a bad idea to have even gotten this conversation started.

Kuro for some reason I get a weird vibe from you and your posts it's kind of like..." born again angst" which in most cases is very unbecoming of Shinto and you like I should know that, regardless of who says what, it's not ok to loose composure and take under handed stabs at people. Our job as followers of Shinto is to guide others to understand and clarify for them the precepts and doctrines by which we our selves follow, not to bash people up side the head figuratively or otherwise

Also  I have to quote you here because I need clarification

1.

You would have issues that you could not fix, and would ultimately reflect badly on the rest of us.

I think a whole lot of people would understand Shiori if she explained  the fact that she is pagan as it's quite the common knowledge, if research was done, you would know pagans have a tendency to intermingle different religions, even my current girl friend does this all though i do give a raised eye brow to Shiori claiming that O-Inari-Sama is a facet of the pagan goddess but that's just me and 20 some thing years of being in the religion. but as the interwebs have proven you're not as expert in what you know as you thought you knew. quite clearly as was told to me either you're Shinto or you're not. there's no in between at all.Ever. Meaning, there's no mixing and matching for Shinto, although it has managed to adopt some foreign structures over the last millennium. but even then those things are defined by the head shrines in Japan. If Shirori is pagan, then how does she reflect upon you or I?

2.

the last thing we need is to look like a bunch of zany, nut job furry folk,

I'm having a very hard time relating to this as interestingly I've never heard this problem, Yes out of a lot of religions we are quite the minority but on top of that no one has ever accused me of the above including my southern baptist Ex girl friend. in fact the only people who get the furry folk accusation are the ones who parade around saying yiff or any thing related  can you provide references? because not even the Mormons bother me. which brings to mind.. there are alot of people here who claim some kind of furry nature.and use a pagan base. So aside from that, I've encountered no problems and neither have a lot of the rest of us. When was there a large group of people against Shinto, in recent history? (also note WW2 doesn't count as most people were against the Japanese, how ever even then there were people who disagreed to what happened,)

3.

A turning point is getting close, and whatever it is, we'll be involved. And I really would like that transition to go as smoothly as possible.

Again I'm really hard pressed for info on this as it sounds like some thing else. having nothing to do with Shinto, Kami, or Kitsune but like I have said in the past, the whole matter is, there's nothing set to happen soon in the Shinto world. As far as I know which is taken from what I've been told at the various ceremonies, the most recent was Hoshi Matsuri. So if can see where I'm headed with this just a brief  explanation would suffice
 

Also Kuro-kun, As long as you explain why in your opinion and not try to make your personal opinion the opinion of every one else , you wouldn't be starting a flame war would you?

Now then.

Shirori can you please refer back to my question of

I'm interested in hearing how others have come to their current state of beliefs. because it's a miracle in the way that the kami have devised to pull their children back to them. and for those curious as to my own nature.

understandably you're pagan so in which case i guess I'm asking, how did you come to you're current interpretation of Inari-sama?

[Shiori]

well since still a "kit" I was a practicing Wiccan for about 4 years but still studying other religions even Buddisim. I was a catholic fox for some time but always beleived who gives others the right to say what path is wrong and right? Well I met Starseeds sometime back (had trouble with Pleadians alot) And one thing I agreed with them with is the Sourse they call it that All the Gods/esses were and are of the Sourse (God ect) So I beleived that for a looong time and still do. But still with a Wiccan kemetic like beleif that the God/esses are One and that we all are connected in some way. So thats how I came to my beleif about Inari and if she was even mad about my beleifs I am very sure she would have made that known. I never disrespected the Goddess nor forced my beleifs on anyone and still uphold my Oaths. I was also very drawn to Bast for years and beleived She is just another aspect of the whats called today the Divine feminin or Mother Goddess. I am not hurting or dishonoring Her in anyway like I said or She would have bopped me on the head a long time ago. To me (not speaking for anyone else) a true Goddess would not force you to worship her or him. I am still with Inari as well as She is the Goddess to me. and I serve the Goddess no matter what her name. just I love Bast is all.  (if I am not making sence ask me to try and clear up more things if possible I just woke up not to long ago.)

[Shiori]

Well yes I know in some Kitsune were hated humans even wanted them dead.  So your right different from Cats in Egypt. But both kind of had the same purpose because of the grains. Both Foxes and Cats got rid of Rodents. Anyway as a kitsune my beleifs do stand out from the norm espessaly under the Bast aspect. (still trying to make sence here I was never good at this lol) but like I said I beleif all comes from the Sourse. And yes even nas a Kitsune I do have a major connection with cats in genral I looove cats in many ways and thats why I love Bast also. I can compare both Bast and Inari as apart of the One Goddess because Inari was I beleive anyway a protector of her Myobu and her humans under Her. She is a Mother Goddess in a way as well. Bast is very simmilar in that aspect. Bast is a Protector a very feirce one but can be loving and nurturing to ones under Her. She had Cats Inari had foxes. We may not be worshipped but Kitsune are and were needed for a simmilar purpose to protect the humans who honored Inari  and Bast to protect the ones who honored her. (ok I hope I made sence anyway)

[Seeker]

So, you're saying Bast and Inari aren't necessarily figures of worship for you, but rather an aspect of what your Starseed acquaintances call the 'Source' goddess, and these particulars are a matter of personal preference and identification? I sort of get what you mean. I've come to a similar belief myself, that gods/goddesses of different religions are essentially facets of the same entity. You're also right, in most pantheons the Mother goddess and the Agriculture goddess were usually related or one and the same, and I was just remarking earlier in the thread how odd it was that it wasn't so with Inari. I still don't have a clear picture of how you see yourself in all of this. Where are you at with that?

To address the other posts:

quite clearly as was told to me either you're Shinto or you're not. there's no in between at all.Ever. Meaning, there's no mixing and matching for Shinto, although it has managed to adopt some foreign structures over the last millennium. but even then those things are defined by the head shrines in Japan.

WAT.
Don't be silly! Even if that's true, and this is the doctrine of the shinto higher-ups, there are loads of people who combine shinto with other religions. the Ainu have their own cultural beliefs yet still reconcile them with Shinto. There are even *gasp* christians who also follow Shinto. Plus, since the HUGE insertion of buddhist influences, it's hardly itself anymore. The religion one follows are a matter of upbringing and self-reflection. Your parents could have been brainwashed you into any random religion as a child, and you'd still be a Kitsune. Shiori's beliefs affect us because it gives us a glimpse into the mind and reality of someone else who's been lead here, and has some of the same beliefs we do. This gives us critical insight that can be applied to our own mentality, and be used to better find our place in the world.

My journey has lead me to believe I'm not a fox- but I could never have learned so much about myself, and come to my current relationship with the kitsune without hearing about what the rest of you believe and why. What it comes down to is, we all share common ground, and we all came here for a reason. And for that, we should treat each other as colleagues. Let's not turn this place into a warzone again over one person or another's take on things. Anyone being honest with themselves and the community can only, at worst, be wrong. They might have mixed up logic, half-thought-out assumptions and faulty information to work with but it's a far cry from being "zany, nut job furry folk."

[Shiori]

Well where I stand in a way? yes you are right. I do not worship the Goddess I think of the Goddess as a Mother figure one to look up to ect. I know the Goddess is there in all things.  And I do beleive the Mother Goddess and Inari is the same both are dealing with Earth ect. So you got alot right *smiles* I do not worship but serve. And I do what ever I can. Out of love.

[GoldKitsu]

Alright I can't resist not talking on this topic anymore.

Assume that all the deities are independent beings not some aspect of the same being.  That they represent different things, that their goals may be incompatible.  Compare it to, saying that all countries are really just some aspect of the same country.  By building nuclear weapons for North Korea I am serving the USA as well.

Of course I don't care about that because I don't follow anyone =^.^=

[Kira]

[/li][/list]

And even should that ever happen, I'll still 'pray' only to my friends, and not to any god there is.

[Rei Tsukikage]

Seeker please bear with me i know that Shinto has become very open sourced. but that was the point of what I'm trying to get across to Kuro as he himself mixes and matches things, as far as the higher up's go they say what they say in defense of keeping the core of the religion alive. but only a few believe that entirely truth is you have to allow for expansion or else things start to fall apart

quite clearly as was told to me either you're Shinto or you're not. there's no in between at all.Ever. Meaning, there's no mixing and matching for Shinto, although it has managed to adopt some foreign structures over the last millennium. but even then those things are defined by the head shrines in Japan.

I understand that what I said was severely understated.
but once again I'm only trying to get a point across to kuro as far as flame war goes I whole heartily agree, it need not be.

And I do understand stand that Shiori's beliefs affect us as a community as do yours, mine, Kira's and kitsu's, but as I was pointing out, Shiori's beliefs do not in any way Reflect negatively on any one within Shinto.

this was a bad topic I'm  >-< this close to asking for it to be locked and or deleted , like originally stated this was only supposed to be a survey of how O-Inari-Sama played a part in ones life and how one came to understand the ...idiosyncrasies? behind Inari. not weather or not the proper worship and detailing of Inari's image was being up held to the utmost rigor and the last part was for me to try to better understand how people interacted with Inari-Same within their lives on a more intimate level.

[Shiori]

And I do like Inari Sama I am studying Shinto again. I may beleive different then other Kitsune but if its not hurting other Kitsune then why should that matter. I perseive inari Sama in a different way so what? (thanks Rei *smiles*) but does that mean I do not serve her still and does that mean I am neglecting or against Her? no. I just beleive differently. And today Shinto has many different faith and beleif systems as well and so don't many other "faiths"

[Kuro]

It's personally frustrating is why, Shiori.  All I'm saying about this subject anymore.  And Rei, the AUDACITY to think that you can speak on my character when you've barely had the chance to even know me outside of this forum, which is a constant source of frustration due to people.  like.  YOU.  I don't bash people upside the head unless it's necessary, otherwise I use a firm, but guiding approach.  Someone has to provide the roll that Salem, as sad as I am to say this, provided to this forum, which is to keep things in check.  Inari-sama isn't a loose collection of everything that makes the world shit rainbows.  Inari-sama has a personality, entityhood all Her own.  Follow that if you want, but know Her before you blindly step into something you might not want to be involved in.

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