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[Aine]

Something that I realized the other day.
Byakko, white-colored foxes, were said to be messengers of Inari and overall good luck to see, right?
The main color morphs for wild red foxes are the usual red, cross, silver, and black. However, the whole idea of a white fox being a messenger seems to imply that it was not uncommonly seen around the time folklore about them was being written, especially because black foxes were also often seen as good luck, and that is a definite color phase.
Anyway, do you think there is or was a albinistic/leucistic/white phase fox population in Japan that may have helped spur this on? Or do you think it might be something else, like just pure legend?

[Teja]

I believe it comes from the two main deities Inari was influenced by -- Dakiniten and Benzaiten, respectively. Dakiniten, of Buddhist/Hindu mythology, also has white fox messengers, and Benzaiten -- one of the seven lucky gods of Japan -- is often associated with a white snake or sea dragon. (Which, I think, is where a lot of the kitsune and dragon connections come into play.) That's kind of a long story short, but there you go. White is simply symbolic, I think, and Inari (like many other Shinto deities) was heavily influenced by other mythologies.

[Kira]

:conf:
At any rate, I am sure we would have similar tales in Europe had early Christianity not extinguished every trace of shamanic religion. As for native American tales... I do not know much about their lore, but I certainly would be curious if any albinic animals apeared in it. It would be an useful reference.
 

[Teja]

A polar fox straying that far from its home, or a rare albino fox, both would probably have caused quite some exitement, enough to cause it to go down in some tales certainly.

That would also be quite impossible. Arctic foxes, as the name implies, are native to the Arctic Circle. Even if they could actually make it to Japan (which would more than likely involve swimming across an ocean), they would almost certainly perish immediately upon arrival. So barring some kind of albino color morph (which you mentioned), I really don't see this as a plausible scenario. I think the white color just has symbolic roots, although I  agree the rarity of such foxes in the wild would likely contribute to the color's sacredness.

[Aine]

Hmm, that's interesting to know, Teja. I knew Inari was influenced by Dakiniten, but I didn't know she had white foxes as messengers, and I had not heard of Benzaiten's white dragon association either.

I kinda wonder why white foxes in the first place - then again it's probably because of the rarity of such, thus making it seem more sacred when one was actually around.

So, yeah, I'm thinking symbolic roots influenced by extreme rarity of coloration.

Interesting note, on what I've looked up on white members of Vulpes vulpes, they almost always have a a slight tannish tint or tannish part of the coat, such as this one, who is almost certainly albino and and this one, unlike the brilliant snow white that arctic foxes can have.

Edit: Also, I agree with Teja on the fact Arctic foxes just wouldn't naturally find their way into Japan - while in captivity they can survive while not being in the Arctic, that wouldn't hold true for a wild one.

[matoa]

The native American Sioux saw the white buffalo as an important animal.

The mythical White Buffalo - symbol of hope, rebirth and unity for the Great Plains tribes.

Reference:
http://http://www.powersource.com/gallery/whiteb.html

Arctic foxes are also native to Russia, in most cases it would still be a ~1500 mile southward journey and sneaking aboard a boat to get to Japan from south Korea (a 2 part ~100 mile crossing).

However the more likely option for a crossing would be the Island of Sakhalin ~1000 miles south of the arctic circle, which was once colonized by Japan and was only a 4 mile swim to the mainland! Or a boat ride for a sneaky fox.

So a true arctic fox would have quite the unusual journey to make it to Japan.

I wonder which has the better odds? An albino fox being born and surviving, or an arctic fox making such a journey and surviving?
 

[Okori Tenko]

Have all forgotten that all foxes take on a wintery coat of white? Is it then any coincidence that white foxes are seen as a natural part of the religious culture?

 At that:

 Posted quote by Teja:

"I believe it comes from the two main deities Inari was influenced by -- Dakiniten and Benzaiten, respectively. Dakiniten, of Buddhist/Hindu mythology, also has white fox messengers, and Benzaiten -- one of the seven lucky gods of Japan -- is often associated with a white snake or sea dragon. (Which, I think, is where a lot of the kitsune and dragon connections come into play.) That's kind of a long story short, but there you go. White is simply symbolic, I think, and Inari (like many other Shinto deities) was heavily influenced by other mythologies."

 I'd like to add to this for correction. Foremost, the aspects of O-Inari and Inari, the male and female aspects of the deity in human eyes, -always- had foxes as their messengers. The influx of Chinese Buddhism during the '600-800' verified time period had nothing to do with Inari and her foxes. Though, the adaptation of the 'Seven Lucky Gods' from adapted Japanese Buddhism do include the 'White Fox', on which both those gods are associated with are indeed depicted as such because of the rule of Buddhism in that day.

 I don't think of Buddhism in high regards because of the fact that the early monks of Buddhism acted much like early Christians did during the Crusades. They forced others to turn away from native Shinto through sheer guilt, and a lot of times through force.

 THAT... makes me angry and resentful.

 In teh end, there's no stopping the influx of the many variations of religious dogma that pools inside of Japan's supermarket of Religious theory and dogma. Many micro-cosms  of religion dot the land almost everywhere you can possibly look. This is fortunate for us kitsune, as we are still heavily tied to Ancient Shinto.

 To be clear on this, and to show you what I mean about the religious persecution of Shinto by Buddhism, I'll recount a Buddhist story that includes kitsune.

 The propaganda story goes as follows:

 A Buddhist Monk was once troubled by his associations with Buddhism, and approached his senior in regards to his problem. The elder Monk advised his pupil: "Go into the deep woods of the forest. There, you may find the purpose for which you were created to do for Buddha's sake."

 And so the young Monk did. He made a long journey into the deepest of woods, and was there about to give up in the deep forests of Fujiyama, when he saw what he beheld as a strange sight.

 A fox sat upon a broken log, crying. Even as he cried, the Monk noted the fox as glowing from within, radiating to the outside and white as the fresh snow. At this sight, the Monk asked, "Lone Fox, why do you cry?"

 With an age of wisdom, the fox looked up. "I am lost, and cry for my Mother, for all of my kind has lost our way."

 The Monk was astonished to hear the response, but suddenly looked to the wisdom of Buddha, and then began to instruct the fox. "If it is that you cry for your mother and your brethren and sistern, and by that your whole family, then you should look to the wisdom of Buddha. In his wisdom, it is said by him that we should let go of all earthly ties so that we may return to the Celestial Heavens."

 The fox cried harder, and seemed not to relent in his wrong ways. "But, your path, monk, is not my way. I cannot travel where you go."

 The monk chided the fox. "Yet, all can turn from their old ways and be saved from damnation of sacrelidge by turning away from the sinful nature of pagan (no ture translation there, but haern used 'pagan' for translation.) ways."

 The fox turned to the Monk, crying loudly. "Do not tempt me, good Monk! For well known are foxes in these lands tied to our mother. Would it be just as simple as turning away from whom we were created by, such a matter would be over and done with as simple as it is made by your words! Yet, it is not so easy a thing, and so we cry for our fate, for such are we cursed!"

 The fox then turned, fleeing from the righteous monk.

 By decision, the monk then started to travel the land, knowing now what Buddha had in store for him. It was his duty, and privileged, to convert all of the Youkai in Japan from Shinto to Buddhism.

 And such is it all of our duties to do so, as good and dutiful servants of Buddha.

 That's where the story ends.

 Yet... that's where the terrible 'cleansing of the shrines' begins, with many, many stories like that in circulation during those times. Many shrines were torn down, burned, or otherwise converted to serve 'Buddhism'. In certain respects, this was much like the Christian Crusades, and I'll never forgive that. However, I won't hold it against modern Buddhist Monks or Modern Buddhists. Yet, I won't tolerate the preaching. I hope it's obvious why now.

 As for me?... I will forever remain Shilori, and a Child of Inari.

 My eyes are open. I know the truth.

[Fujo Jigen]

Have all forgotten that all foxes take on a wintery coat of white? Is it then any coincidence that white foxes are seen as a natural part of the religious culture?

 At that:

 Posted quote by Teja:

"I believe it comes from the two main deities Inari was influenced by -- Dakiniten and Benzaiten, respectively. Dakiniten, of Buddhist/Hindu mythology, also has white fox messengers, and Benzaiten -- one of the seven lucky gods of Japan -- is often associated with a white snake or sea dragon. (Which, I think, is where a lot of the kitsune and dragon connections come into play.) That's kind of a long story short, but there you go. White is simply symbolic, I think, and Inari (like many other Shinto deities) was heavily influenced by other mythologies."

 I'd like to add to this for correction. Foremost, the aspects of O-Inari and Inari, the male and female aspects of the deity in human eyes, -always- had foxes as their messengers. The influx of Chinese Buddhism during the '600-800' verified time period had nothing to do with Inari and her foxes. Though, the adaptation of the 'Seven Lucky Gods' from adapted Japanese Buddhism do include the 'White Fox', on which both those gods are associated with are indeed depicted as such because of the rule of Buddhism in that day.

 I don't think of Buddhism in high regards because of the fact that the early monks of Buddhism acted much like early Christians did during the Crusades. They forced others to turn away from native Shinto through sheer guilt, and a lot of times through force.

 THAT... makes me angry and resentful.

 In teh end, there's no stopping the influx of the many variations of religious dogma that pools inside of Japan's supermarket of Religious theory and dogma. Many micro-cosms  of religion dot the land almost everywhere you can possibly look. This is fortunate for us kitsune, as we are still heavily tied to Ancient Shinto.

 To be clear on this, and to show you what I mean about the religious persecution of Shinto by Buddhism, I'll recount a Buddhist story that includes kitsune.

 The propaganda story goes as follows:

 A Buddhist Monk was once troubled by his associations with Buddhism, and approached his senior in regards to his problem. The elder Monk advised his pupil: "Go into the deep woods of the forest. There, you may find the purpose for which you were created to do for Buddha's sake."

 And so the young Monk did. He made a long journey into the deepest of woods, and was there about to give up in the deep forests of Fujiyama, when he saw what he beheld as a strange sight.

 A fox sat upon a broken log, crying. Even as he cried, the Monk noted the fox as glowing from within, radiating to the outside and white as the fresh snow. At this sight, the Monk asked, "Lone Fox, why do you cry?"

 With an age of wisdom, the fox looked up. "I am lost, and cry for my Mother, for all of my kind has lost our way."

 The Monk was astonished to hear the response, but suddenly looked to the wisdom of Buddha, and then began to instruct the fox. "If it is that you cry for your mother and your brethren and sistern, and by that your whole family, then you should look to the wisdom of Buddha. In his wisdom, it is said by him that we should let go of all earthly ties so that we may return to the Celestial Heavens."

 The fox cried harder, and seemed not to relent in his wrong ways. "But, your path, monk, is not my way. I cannot travel where you go."

 The monk chided the fox. "Yet, all can turn from their old ways and be saved from damnation of sacrelidge by turning away from the sinful nature of pagan (no ture translation there, but haern used 'pagan' for translation.) ways."

 The fox turned to the Monk, crying loudly. "Do not tempt me, good Monk! For well known are foxes in these lands tied to our mother. Would it be just as simple as turning away from whom we were created by, such a matter would be over and done with as simple as it is made by your words! Yet, it is not so easy a thing, and so we cry for our fate, for such are we cursed!"

 The fox then turned, fleeing from the righteous monk.

 By decision, the monk then started to travel the land, knowing now what Buddha had in store for him. It was his duty, and privileged, to convert all of the Youkai in Japan from Shinto to Buddhism.

 And such is it all of our duties to do so, as good and dutiful servants of Buddha.

 That's where the story ends.

 Yet... that's where the terrible 'cleansing of the shrines' begins, with many, many stories like that in circulation during those times. Many shrines were torn down, burned, or otherwise converted to serve 'Buddhism'. In certain respects, this was much like the Christian Crusades, and I'll never forgive that. However, I won't hold it against modern Buddhist Monks or Modern Buddhists. Yet, I won't tolerate the preaching. I hope it's obvious why now.

 As for me?... I will forever remain Shilori, and a Child of Inari.

 My eyes are open. I know the truth.

Quite honestly I think 'kitsune' religion orignially had nothing to do with 'human' religion cause if you think about it Kitsune's has been in every part of the world, and has at some point been mentioned in every religion of the world, be it the europeans, the Asians, or even the Native Americans. If you study most folklores you'd notice high similarities between each one. I can name one for example, a Kitsune's wedding in japan is known to happen during a sunny rainy day, did you know the same can be said for the foxes in the U.K.?

So I think it would be best just to seperate human from kitsune because of hte fact they are two different species (even if they can reproduce with, become, or fuse with humans,) Kitsune's must of had their own belief system before merging with the humans.

[Hakuzo NightFox]

Quite honestly I think 'kitsune' religion orignially had nothing to do with 'human' religion cause if you think about it Kitsune's has been in every part of the world, and has at some point been mentioned in every religion of the world, be it the europeans, the Asians, or even the Native Americans. If you study most folklores you'd notice high similarities between each one. I can name one for example, a Kitsune's wedding in japan is known to happen during a sunny rainy day, did you know the same can be said for the foxes in the U.K.?

So I think it would be best just to seperate human from kitsune because of hte fact they are two different species (even if they can reproduce with, become, or fuse with humans,) Kitsune's must of had their own belief system before merging with the humans.

These are very true words. Kitsune lore can be found all over the place. A lot of it is similar, though only few places have Foxes that have multiple tails.

[Fujo Jigen]

well different regions do different things, for example I know there's a native american tribe that lives with foxes and they 'do what the foxes do' in the case of those foxes mate for life so they mate for life as well I saw it on TV once adn I was facinated with that concept, I mean for something like that to be done even today is amazing! Kinda makes you wanna go and live there 

[Kira]

 
Indeed.
Do you still remember the name of that tribe?
It would probably be intereting to look it up.

[Fujo Jigen]

Unfortunately no......but I do know its on the west side of the continent, I can probably google it real quick so Ill post right back after I search!


aaaaannnddd now my head hurts @_@ Im not looking for the 'Fox' native american tribe!!! Im looking for the Native American Tribe that lived with foxes!!! gah!!! >< give me a few hours for a break so this headache goes away and Ill look again....><

[Kira]

 
Okay, good luck!

[Takumi-no-Kitsune]

I remember a while back, only a few years, an occurance that happened while I was playing a quick match of tennis (I play once a week for practice).

During the match, we had our break after game point, and I had taken a seat facing some woods off to the left of the courts. Most animals do not stay in that general area due to a small road that is active during the day because of the vehicles passing through that are owned by the other people that play or coach there. However, in this instance, I had the oddest feeling something was watching me, so I stood up and walked to the side that faced the woods (the court was semi-fenced, so you can see across the street completely. It's not even ten feet across to the woods. It is also because of this that they lose many tennis balls). To my surprise, a mid-size white fox was starting at me in the area that was grass right before it became wooded.

So, instinctively, I chuckled to myself and prayed to Inari and the white fox, seeing as it was a messanger (there are NO white foxes where I live. Native, that is, unless somehow they broke loose from a zoo, and the zoos do not have foxes here anyway).

Also, just to throw it out there, I won the match after that in a comeback that was 3-6 to 8-6.

[Fujo Jigen]

Nice! XD sometimes I wish I could be that lucky in sports, but I learned long ago if it involves a ball dont play it....I had and still have a nasty accidental habit of making the balls go towards guys' crotches....only one has ever blocked.....

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